Yesterday I spoke at length with a backer of the 6: Siege Kickstarter project, after which I looked at the project itself and at perspectives from various sources (Dicebreaker and BoardGameCo). I empathize with the tough situation these backers are in, and I’m hoping to add something constructive to the conversation.
Here’s a brief overview of the situation: Two years ago in June/July 2021, Mythic Games successfully funded a Kickstarter campaign for a game based on the 6: Siege IP. The total amount raised from 10,884 backers was a little over $1.5 million, with reward levels at $69, $199, and $269. The delivery estimate at the time was June 2022.
On April 30, 2023, backers received a project update saying that due to the increase in manufacturing costs over the last 2 years, Mythic Games can only make the game if a critical mass of backers add either $39, $99, or $129 to their pledge (plus shipping). If they reach that critical mass, only backers who make the extra payment will hypothetically receive their games in October. As for other backers, Mythic Games says, “We will remain open to other possibilities to deliver to you by monitoring the evolution of prices.”
Mythic Games is far from the only publisher to request additional funds from backers, though the other creators I’ve seen have made the request as an optional consideration, not a requirement. Also, most other publishers who have done this have linked the costs to freight shipping, not manufacturing costs.
If you’re a creator, here are 10 ways you can avoid situations in which you feel the need to request more funds from backers months or years after a crowdfunding campaign. Here they are in roughly in chronological order (and please note that none of these are a commentary on Mythic Games–it’s quite possible they did at least a few of these things):
- Launch as late into the design, development, and art process as possible: This is the first and most important measure a creator can take to remove the uncertainty that follows the campaign. If your product is 99% finished when you launch, even if you make some improvements thanks to backer input, you can go to print within a few months using essentially the same budget you received pre-launch.
- Budget accurately and charge accordingly: Work with one or multiple manufacturers (our preferred choice is Panda) to quote the project, also factoring in all other costs (crowdfunding fees, freight shipping, art, graphic design, royalties, etc) before selecting your pledge level prices.
- Add a healthy buffer: Costs can change, so prepare for the unexpected by building at least a 20% buffer into your budget (costs and prices). The buffer should be calculated after considering all possible stretch goals, not before.
- Avoid intellectual properties and high sunk costs: If your product is based on an intellectual property (IP), you are most likely paying at least a 5-10% royalty on revenue to the owner of the IP, which can cut deep into thin margins. High sunk costs (like dozens of miniature molds) can also present problems, as you can’t proceed with general manufacturing until after you’ve paid those costs.
- Maintain low overhead: The more ongoing bills you have (employee salaries, facilities, etc), the more revenue you’re spending every month instead of on key creation elements (manufacturing costs, freight shipping, etc). Hiring the right people and providing healthy working environments are important steps to success, but just watch out for bloat.
- Create ongoing revenue streams to pay the bills: First-time creators don’t have the luxury of this possibility, but experienced publishers do. I waited to go full-time at Stonemaier Games until we had localization partners, distributors, and a webstore, all of which were providing ongoing revenue streams to pay the bills. That way, the funds raised for a new project can always be reserved for that specific project.
- Don’t launch another crowdfunding project before manufacturing has started on the current project: No one is insisting that you make yet another game, at least not until they receive the game they’ve already bought. It’s okay to focus on getting one thing right before you turn your attention to another project, especially if your finances dictate that Project 1 can’t exist without funds from Project 2. That’s a big red flag that should be a wake-up call for any creator.
- Seek prepayments from distributors: This isn’t common, but it is a possibility. If it’s time to manufacture a product and you’re short on funds, talk to distributors to see if they each might prepay for a few hundred units with a discount. This is typically only possible if you’ve laid the groundwork for strong, ongoing relationships (see point 6).
- Consider a bridge loan: Banks and investors are sometimes open to bridge loans, which basically bridge the gap between point A (pre-manufacturing) and point B (fulfillment and future sales). This is typically possible if you have ample collateral that the lender can use if you can’t pay back the loan (i.e., inventory or property).
- Show the math with complete transparency: When all else fails, I believe that it is the creator’s responsibility to show the math with completely transparency, no matter how revealing or embarrassing it may be. Tell backers the exact manufacturing cost per unit, comparing the original estimate to the final quote; then, separately, reveal the same cost comparison per unit for freight shipping. I think in most cases the truth is that the creator spent the crowdfunding revenue on a lot of other things along the way (bills, art, sunk costs, etc). Ultimately, I believe it is the creator’s responsibility to either fulfill rewards or refund pledges, with any requests for additional funds being entirely optional (and based on completely transparent information about costs per unit).
What did I miss? I’d love to hear from other creators about steps they take to avoid these types of situations. The conversation in the comments must be civil, accurate, and constructive–this is a place to help creators and the backers they serve. Thank you!
Also read: Puzzles, CMON, El Dorado, and Grey Gnome: Talking Points from Recent News
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45 Comments on “10 Ways for Creators to Prevent a Mythic Meltdown”
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[…] interview with Mythic) and Alex at BoardGameCo. I also previously discussed what creators can do to prevent mythic meltdowns (in reference to a third Mythic Games project that appears to now be in the freight shipping […]
I served as a developer for a designer out of Canada and the publisher was in the U.S. I followed the Updates over the last few years and the VAT issue coupled with Brexit made me never want to enter the industry as a publisher. God bless you, Jamey you definitely laid the groundwork early-on before growing the company. What the U.S. publisher faced with regard to paying taxes overseas and having shipments released is both maddening and borderline exploitative. All of the recommendation you mention are spot-on, but creators just need to be aware of the myriad other things for which you just can’t plan…but only react to.
[…] week I wrote about a crowdfunding project whose creator lost the trust of many backers after requiring significant additional payments well […]
I’ve yet to see a crowdfunded project do this, but I’d love to see transparency and “the math” upfront, before things get bad. Keep them as private updates if needed, but when funds are disbursed from the “KS account” be open about it. When you pay the manufacturer, actually show the numbers. When you pay for shipping, show us. Some things ought to be kept private, like paying specific individuals, artists, etc. but you can easily wrap that into a “Design” cost or a “Development” cost. It shouldn’t be 1 year after the KS finished and the funds have dried up either. It should be live, as the funds are being disbursed. If my money is being used to pay for something, I’d like to know about it. I’d care a lot more about those updates than a monthly “we’re still working on it…” (<~ this is the bare minimum I’d hold all creators to, communication is key). Think of it like getting an alert on your credit card. Those are the updates I’d like to see.
I think that’s a great idea, Taylor.
Communication is so important. There are Kickstarters that I have now received, but over a year late. Myself and the other backers weren’t especially annoyed because, due to circumstances outside the creator’s control, the manufacturing ended up with multiple delays but the creators kept EVERYONE updated.
With things like “here are photos of the test pieces that have been sent back for correction, because is part is backwards. Also, here are the ideas I am discussing to prevent this problem happening in future”. Or “here are photos of bins of finished parts. Unfortunately the other half of the parts are delayed, because covid just shut the factory down, and that means we’re going to crash into Lunar New Year celebrations”. Some fun diversion with “due to shipping prices spiking, we have run the numbers and we’re sending the european distribution centre their stuff by train. Normally this is too slow, but the ships are running so late we expect it to arrive at about the same time”. And one final glorious “we sent out details of the freight ships so you can track them. Here is the NEW details for the Oceania ship, because the dock workers accidentally managed to leave our cargo container behind”.
By this point it was just funny to see behind the scenes, because there was no anxiety about whether you’d been tricked, it was all problem solving rollercoasters.
Hi Jamey –
Really, the question on my mind, and I have to believe that this is keeping the folks at Mythic up at night, is – how do you rebuild trust after an incident like this? Crowdfunding seems to be a critical part of Mythic’s business model, and, surely, they’re going to have a hard time with it if people’s faith in their ability to deliver on their campaigns is gone.
The worst case scenario I can think of takes me back to the first thing I backed on Kickstarter, The Coolest (a tricked out cooler), which, like this, had a pledge level which later we found out was quite a bit below the cost of manufacturing. The creator was as transparent as he could have been (I felt), and in the end asked for another 50-75 bucks or so from backers, which would get us to the front of the line. Other folks would still get their coolers… eventually.
Well, long story short, more delays, lawsuits, and some better business bureau complaints later, the company went out of business with thousands of pledges unfulfilled. I was one of the lucky ones who was able to pay the additional money and got my coolest a month or so later, but a lot of folks didn’t, and I feel awful for them.
I hope Mythic is able to avoid the same fate. Would love your thoughts on this – here, or perhaps in a future blog post.
Jacques: Someone on Facebook had a great answer to this, using Monolith as an example. When Monolith had some issues and was losing trust, part of their solution was to stop (for a while) making new games and instead focus on new, improved editions of their most popular products. This helped with cash flow and with regaining trust.
Most of this is common business sense but easy to overlook, especially if you are doing this for the first time. Thank you for all this helpful advice! As a first time publisher I highly appreciate it!
On the positive side regarding crowdfunding overall: I have asked for some numbers and based on some-thousand boardgame crowdfunding pledges it looks like 98.X% of those get fulfilled. Compared to project failure rates in other industries / businesses that is actually a pretty good number, so the vast majority of crowdfunding creators must be doing a good job out there.
I like the positive spin, Eike–thank you!
Great points- I think Steeped Games, Chai: Tea for Two is the perfect/terrible example Kickstarter project for another point: Communication. This is a project that was expected to deliver in February 2022, which turned into May 2022, then November 2022 – which at least was communicated, though not super regularly. Now though, it’s been radio silence since 10/6/22. At least if backers knew that more funds were required or manufacturing or shipping issues occurred, there’d be an understanding of what is needed to resolve and deliver the project. IMO, I think the cardinal sin of Kickstarter deliveries is ghosting backers and silence- people will be upset to be asked to pay more or read about delays, but silence is deadly for backer morale and trust.
I’m sorry to hear that about Steeped Games, Jen. It’s sometimes hard to share bad news, but I agree that it’s the creator’s responsibility to communicate clearly and consistently.
Some publishers Kickstart their game way to early, I’d agree design should be 99% finished, as this saves time between manufacture and getting the game into backers hands. One year maybe acceptable but two+ is pushing it. People move on and the hype of your game will diminish if it takes so long to produce. Another common mistake is to promise too much, backers input should be welcome to improve the game, but alot of backers just want more “stuff” for the same price. There is no reason why an expansion has to be included, or more “stuff” this can be done at a later date or another Kickstarter. They will either back or not back without promising the earth.
One thing that shouldn’t be overlooked is the tax schema in which you and your company exist. If your campaign wraps up in November and your jurisdiction taxes the company on net income within a calendar year, you might not have paid any of your costs yet, meaning the net income will be higher than if you had paid the manufacturer. If you are not a tax expert, hire one, and make sure you have this as part of your budget when you go to crowdfunding.
Great point. It’s incredibly important to know the basics of accrual-based accounting.
A few things:
The contribution of $129 is just for the pledge level. They also charged extra for all the add-ons. So the contribution for the top level pledge and add-ons and the extra shipping is an extra $245. Given that all these things and the previous paid shipping were about $450,the extra contribution makes this a $700 game all up. Do I think it is worth it that? No which is why I’m not paying the contribution.
Whcih leads to the second thing. The FAQ from Mythic stated that if you don’t make the contribution then you don’t get the game as they don’t consider it fair to the people who made the extra contribution. So it’s not really a contribution. It’s a ransom or extortion amount as they are withholding the game (which you already paid for a lot) unless you pay the extra amount.
For this reason I have requested a refund for both 6:Siege and Monsterpocalypse (which cost even more and I can see the same thing happening there).
I won’t back another Mythic Games project ever again after this experience.
Mark: Thanks for the clarification. So the takeaway for other creators is, “Don’t ask for a ransom?” I hope you get the refund you requested.
Yes or if it is a true contribution then reward those who pay with some extra (for example) but still give the other people the game they paid for.
I’m not against paying extra and in a number of Kickstarters I’ve had to pay extra shipping or the campaign has asked for extra money but done it through something like selling a promo pack. Something low cost to them but potentially high value to the backers.
The problem with 6:Siege primarily is that their contribution isn’t reasonable and they effectively doubling the shipping amount they originally. I back a lot of projects and some like Marvel United or Frostbite or Skyrim or Gotham City Chronicles were about 5 to 8 each including miniatures and shipped for considerably less even during or post COVID.
There is a contractual agreement you make when you ask for shipping and even money to create a product. When that transfer of money has completed, the end user (backer in this case) has fulfilled their end of the bargain.
Backers are not continuous ATM machines just to print money. Creators should take that away. And we are approaching that which each time backers are asked for money and there are zero consequences. Why wouldn’t a creator just ask for more money?
KS is pretty ludicrous if you ask me. You basically get a free loan with 0% interest, no credit hard inquiry and hoops to prove you’re financially sound and can pay back what you owe (like with a bank and other means of securing capital), you get to keep whatever you product in terms of property rights vs other forms of investing, you get to know what your the people who back want directly and the amount they will pay without having to guesstimate.
I’m a big fan of regulation to say the least. Where crowdfunding platforms (who get the best gig out of all thus) must be mandated to do certain things in order to allow someone to crowdfund. Such as hard inquiry into credit score and financial declaration (of previous debts owed etc). Preventing any creator from continuously launching new campaigns before others have delivered on their platform. This would go a long way at having some guardrails instead of “anything goes” we have now.
This was meant to be a separate comment and not part of this thread ☹️
I think it would be good to clarify that the contribution (plus shipping) is actually also a shipping contribution since people already paid shipping a first time as well. I think they probably just split it up so the extra contribution doesn’t look that bad as that’s the thing quoted in most articles. Yet people are paying at least double with shipping.
Sad thing is also the lies (regarding point 1), as Mythic Games already claimed during the campaign in an interview that the game was finished and ready for production, and then take another 2 years to finish it.
Thank you for the clarification!
At what point do their actions go from negligent to criminal? Or does that line even exist when it comes to Kickstarter’s contractual language?
Kickstarter definitely isn’t liable–they’ve made sure to draw the line there. I can’t speak to the legality of any legal action between backers and creators, nor is that the type of constructive conversation I’m trying to foster here.
I am not a backer of any of Mythic campaigns, but I’ve backed many games on KS over the years (I’m guessing over 100 campaigns?). I have many deliver early (Gamelyn and Garphill are usually capable of this), most deliver relatively on-time (a month or matter of weeks for such a project is effectively on-time to me) and a few that are late to very, very late. I don’t think I’ve ever had a board game KS fail on me (though I have had a few non-game campaigns fail to deliver).
As a counter-point to Mythic’s mistakes, I offer up Sky Kingdom Games and The Isofarian Guard. Estimated delivery was December 2020. The game only just arrived last week. They had the same shipping problems everyone had, given that their delivery was literally years late AND the size of the game quite literally doubled. And yet I was never upset about it. This boils down to transparency and communication. They readily admitted when they made mistakes, were transparent about the production and provided measurable, concrete goals with target dates that they generally hit. They released an update, like clockwork, monthly, discussing all aspects of production. When the time came and they realized they were going to have shipping cost problems, they didn’t hold the games for ransom, but instead offered digital giveaways like art assets in return for donations. They promised the game would ship, only that if they didn’t cover their shortfall, the company wouldn’t survive the effort. They raised the money and as far as I know, the company will be fine.
This doesn’t make them free from criticism, it just means they managed to salvage a campaign that ran into issues, using many of the techniques Jamey describes above. I’m sure they won’t repeat many of them going forward.
Thank you so much for sharing an example of how another company ran into the same issues but still found a way to put their backers first! I really like the combination of transparency plus digital rewards for donations.
I wish Holy Grail Games had realised all this. I am in the position of knowing my game is fresh off the ship, but the company has filed for bankruptcy and I’m not likely to see it as it is in the hands of the French bankruptcy courts. Tiles of the Arabian Nights and Rallyman supporters are very sad.
That’s too bad, Alicia. We saw a similar situation with a French company we partnered with in our early days, Morning Players.
I will console myself with Wingspan :-)
Yo backer here (and KoA patron). Agree all but 4 from a business perspective (from a creative perspective IP is overdone and lazy). Given advice to indie game devs.
IP has a royalty but this is offset but more sales based upon IP value. Furthermore, you can augment your contract (and should) that the other company helps with problems (if they should arise). Which would make it less of simply buying a license and more of a joint-venture. Contractual agreements can be varied and beneficial to create more stability.
Expanding on 5. Know what takes the most amount of time and least amount of time for game creation. An artist is not a full time employment. Yes, you pay a higher rate but overall it’s less money going out. A community manager is essential (to promote answer questions before a KS campaign, deal with youtube creators to get content marketing out, during KS campaign to answer questions, after campaign to answer more questions deal with backer issues). Full time, part time, contractual, seasonal, etc. Know different types of employment. Utilize them.
11. Recognize a changing market conditions, inflation for you and backers, and downsize campaigns and games. No reason for you to launch a game with 10 expansions and a core box. Launch with 1 game (possibly an expansion), focus on the core experience. If you get good reception, you can launch another. Sgs built upon improvement the core experience with component upgrades, etc. Panic Roll is a good model for Indie dev. Focus on building that reputation of making the best games and being a good company than pumping out boxes. Reputation and word of mouth from backers is key. KS is a cutthroat place. Good games are not good enough in a sea of KS all competing for backer’s money. You need them to be great. Take your time to make the best game possible and build a solid reputation. It’s better to go slow and do it right than go fast and crash and burn. A bad reputation and bad word of mouth is hard to get rid of (backers DO talk about companies and companies DO development reputations-good, bad, and in between). If you deliver a great game and need extra cash (know what games you made are highly praise), you can store that game in your back pocket, reprint it for emergency cash, with minimal costs (since development is done, molds are done, etc), in case you’re in dire straights.
12. Talk to other devs to figure out better deals with freight, distributors, etc. Communicate with your peers. You may answer to backers, but you have companies/people who work for you, are vying for your business, and should answer to you. If some company sucks, talk to your peers and find better companies. Do not settle. Have high standards for yourself and those companies you employ to help you.
13. Look at different things to raise funds that are low cost to produce. AR done a card pack. Simply begging or demanding money (after people have agreed) is one of the worst ways to go about it.
14. Any problem is not just about transparency. That’s basic (although not often done). Show backers you are proactive than reactive. A problem arises shows two different types of people. Victims and those who refuse to be victims (even if it’s not their fault). Show backers what actions you are taking, that you’re not just asking for money. That you’re doing everything in your power to prevent it, or at the least, mitigate it (e.g. Oathsworn). Updates that talk about overcoming problems through wit, determination, and creativity, are the best type updates. As well as apologizing (recognizing that backers are people just like you who are dealing with “rising costs.” shocker but devs are not alone with “rising costs.” no one gives me extra money to “bail me out.” such a backer planned to give you the money that was agreed per when you asked for shipping. Not for unexpected costs. Recognize that).
15. Don’t charge for shipping till you are ready to ship. I can’t tell you how many devs I’ve seen go under charging for shipping early. One I was in, nearly went under (KDM). When shipping is paid, the backer fulfilled their end of the bargain. He or she has done his or her job. Ask for money when you’re read. Don’t pretend to play the stock market with shipping, charging earlier hoping it’s cheaper later.
16. Be Zenster.
*dire straits
Thanks for sharing your perspective! I particularly like your point 11 about adjusting the types of products you create based on the market.
Unfortunately I feel like this will happen soon with one I backed almost 3 years ago. Adventures in Neverland, by black box games. There’s has been little to no communication. What communication there has been, is suspect at best. Lesson learned. Thank you for the list. Your points not only help creaters, but they also help us consumers no what to look for.
I’m glad you mentioned communication, Casey. It’s so important, especially when things aren’t going as planned.
I was a backer for another Mythic project that is going sideways, and its been an (expensive) educational experience for me. I guess Ive been lucky as its the first KS in 5~ years that doesnt look like its going to deliver. Points 7 & 10 are the most salient.
Ever since Mythics…uh…missteps, the first thing I do before backing any campaign is to see what else the publisher has in the frying pan. If theyve launched another campaign within the previous 6 months, I avoid. Even if theyre not robbing Peter to pay Paul, I have a hard time believing they’ll keep those revenue streams seperate.
Point 10 is the other big thing – communication and transparency is key! Mythic has cited production costs, shipping costs, covid, ukraine ware etc as the reasons for these cost spikes. My job requires a lot of cross-ocean importing of products. While costs have certainly spiked, theyve also come down a bit and plateau’d (worth noting most of these campaigns were launched near the peak of COVID). Now, I deal in construction equipment, which might not be suffering from the same problems as what goes into boardgame manufacturing, but seeing as Mythic refuses to communicate I am only left to speculate using the knowledge I have, which tells me theyre being dishonest.
My point I would add to this would be:
Dont move goalposts:
Though this is the first failing campaign Ive backed, its not the first Ive witnessed. And its pretty common to see when things starting breaking down, the campaign moves from being treated as a pre-order system and starts getting treated as venture capital. The word “investment” starts getting tossed around. I give you money to bring a project to life. In the simplest meaning of the word that can be considered an investment, but for practical, real-world purposes thats not how investments work (for reasons Im not going to get into here).
Dont sell your campaign as a glorified pre-order then change tone to venture capital when it starts failing.
Don’t move the goalposts–this is a great insight, Luke! Thanks for your comment. As a publisher, I can say that production costs have increased over time, but by a few dollars at most.
Yeah, I would say that a contribution of money with no expectation of return is not an investment, but a donation.
It’s nice to see your standpoint on this matter Jamey. It makes me, as a customer, feel safe supporting your products. My gut-feeling says Mythic Games is abusing this situation because the Darkest Dungeon contribution request proved to them that backers are willing to give them extra money to get their games. I do not have proof, of course, but that’s what I’m feeling.
* I backed Darkest Dungeon and paid extra to get it.
* I backed HEL: The Last Saga but had to cancel and request for refund (still no refund)
* I did not continue my $1 Anastyr pledge because lesson learned.
* Now I feel bad for backers of 6: Siege
I wish backers can take legal actions against Mythic.
Clint: Given this information, what can creators learn from your experience?
I would say Full Transparency as stated in #10 in your list. The backers shouldn’t have to guess and come up with theories about how and why a creator is asking a specific amount.
Second, value the trust your backers are giving you. Backers usually back campaigns from the same creator not just because they like the company’s games, but also because they trust them to deliver. If we’re going back to the roots on why we are crowdfunding, it is because we have an idea that we want to materialize using the funds of the people. If we look at crownfunding scene now, frankly, it’s mostly being treated as preorders BUT all the business risks shouldered by the backers.
I hope this helps contribute to the topic, I apologize for my first comment.
Thanks Clint! I really like both of these, and I’m glad you mentioned trust–it’s so, so important. It’s hard to earn and easy to lose.
I can’t help but think about The Shivers project as an example of asking for more money being done right. At a time when many projects were asking customers to drop extra money because shipping rose so much more than projected, they instead offered us the ability to purchase a mini-expansion (I think it was a pack you could create your own characters, so didn’t even need any/much added artwork.) IIRC, they priced it more than it might be “worth” but not an absurd amount. And it was optional. I wasn’t something I necessarily felt I needed, but I was so appreciative of how it was handled, that I added it on.
I like that approach, Jamie! Thank you for sharing.
The main problem with Mythic Games is that they have 6 unfulfilled KS campaigns. That’s more than $10 million in pledges alone.
If they’re asking for more money, it’s clear that there’s been a huge mismanagement of the funds received.
Darkest Dungeon can be bought in their site while most backers haven’t received it (all non-english games and those that pledged for the english game but didn’t pay for the ‘extra’ money asked haven’t received a single thing).
I regret that I pledged money on 3 of those games, because I find it very difficult I would see any of them, ever…
That is indeed quite a few unfulfilled projects, each probably compounding the next. That’s why point 7 is so important! :)