By far one of the most commonly asked questions people have asked us over the years for games like Viticulture, Scythe, Wingspan, and Tapestry is, “Will you ever sell an all-in bundle in a big box?”
The answer for us is no; rather, we take an ala carte approach. On our webstore and in retail we sell those core games, expansions, and accessories separately so people always have the freedom to pick and choose exactly what they want. We also offer some big organizer boxes (the Scythe Legendary Box and the upcoming Viticulture Wine Crate and the Wingspan Nesting Box).
In my opinion, the ala carte approach is considerably more customer friendly, but so many people have asked this question that I’d like to do a deeper examination today and listen to your thoughts in the comments. Here are the considerations:
- special deal: I think the perception is that an all-in bundle will inherently give you more for your money than buying everything separately. There are certainly all-in bundles across a variety of product categories that reinforce this belief. But getting a good deal and getting an all-in bundle aren’t inherently the same thing–you can get a good deal without buying everything (and the net gain can often be better for you, as you’re not spending money on elements you don’t need/want). Also, whenever you buy multiple items in the same order instead of separate orders, you save on shipping costs. I see the point about why all-in customers could justify a small discount if everything is pre-packed into an organizer box, as they aren’t paying for each individual box (or the shipping for each individual box) in that instance.For the Viticulture World/Wine Crate preorder in early June, all Viticulture products will be on sale during the preorder period, and Stonemaier Champions will receive an additional 20% discount.
- one click and done: There is certainly a convenience factor to clicking a single button instead of adding multiple items to your cart. That makes sense to me. At the same time, I don’t think it’s that much more difficult to click several times instead of once, though there’s probably a diminishing return based on the number of clicks necessary. If you need to add 20 different promos and accessories to your cart, that’s quite an inconvenience. There are 5 core Viticulture products (plus Viticulture World or the Wine Crate).
- collector’s mentality: Many gamers (and people in general) are collectors. There’s something reassuring about knowing that you have “all the things” (and sometimes the nicest version of all the things). Again, I think this can be replicated by a well-organized/communicated webstore or add-on page, but perhaps it doesn’t quite scratch the collector’s itch the same way. “Complete” is a powerful word.
- shipping consolidation: It’s marginally easier to ship a single box instead of multiple boxes, but either way they’re going in the same package. Right now, freight shipping makes it far more cost-prohibitive to ship big boxes than smaller boxes.
- eco-friendliness: I can get on board with this element. It is more eco-friendly to make a single box instead of several boxes that will immediately be recycled. That’s one of the reasons we’re including the Viticulture World Cooperative Expansion (without its box) inside of every first-printing copy of the Wine Crate.
- such a big up-front investment: It seems like a pretty huge ask for a customer to spend $300+ on an all-in bundle when they haven’t even tried the game yet. This is probably the most surprising aspect of the customer requests for this type of bundle (especially for crowdfunding campaigns where no one has even had the opportunity to play the game yet). Isn’t it more budget-friendly to pay $60 for the game first to see if you like it, then later invest in expansions/accessories if you see it getting to the table often? Also, all-in big boxes aren’t retailer friendly due to the high price.
- more flexibility: The ala carte system is so much more flexible than an all-in bundle. You can pick and choose exactly what YOU want instead of ME telling you what you must have. I’d much rather give customers the freedom of choice.
- waiting for a hypothetical: I’ve had multiple people tell me that they’re planning to wait for an all-in big box bundle (even though we said on our website and in response to those comments that we are not making all-in big box bundles). This has always seemed a bit odd to me–if there’s a game you don’t own that you want to play, why not just buy it now instead of waiting for some hypothetical moment in the future when you might be able to buy everything all at once?
- respectful of previous customers: We’ve said for years that we wouldn’t make an all-in big box for Scythe, and many people have bought into Scythe’s ala-carte style system–it wouldn’t be fair to them to suddenly change our minds and offer an all-in big box bundle deal. Here’s a case study of this happening in 2021 for Everdell. For this reason alone, we definitely will not make all-in big box bundles for Scythe, Wingspan, Viticulture, or Tapestry.
- Why not both? Why not offer everything ala carte and in a consolidated format? I think that’s viable for crowdfunding when you’re precisely gauging demand prior to production. But for rolling reprints, if a publisher offers everything ala carte, it becomes largely redundant to also bundle everything into a big box (especially if you offer an organizer box as one of the ala carte options).
What’s your take on all-in bundles vs the ala carte approach? Do you prefer all-in in some situations and ala carte in others?
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31 Comments on “All-In Bundles vs Ala Carte”
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All great points from Jamey. However, I would add if you have a game as popular as Viticulture or Scythe, or Terraforming Mars, many of those folks (like me) who started getting heavy into table top games would prefer to get the box box, and not pay for 7 smaller boxes, because we know we will like the game. I spent a lot of time, and extra money to find and purchase all Scythe content. A one stop shop would have been great for me, and I think others.
And with anything in a capitalist system, you should get a better deal if you buy more…..I understand that is not SM games philosophy, but it is the philosophy for most of the commercial world (other industries, and with other publishers).
I am not knocking SM Games in anyway, just acknowledging/commenting that SM has a different policy than many/most others that have popular games (and other industries).
Thanks for your thoughts, Joel. I understand why anyone (including myself) might want a better deal on anything, but as for “you should get a better deal if you buy more,” why? The items cost us the same to make whether you buy 1 of them or 5 of them. The deal you get by buying multiple items from us is that they all ship together, saving you individual shipping rates. I also don’t think it’s a good way to appreciate all customers who have paid for each item individually in the past when they were released. The one reason I can see this might be true is what you said about paying for boxes you don’t need–given that we don’t make a $300+ version of Scythe for the reasons mentioned above, if we’re asking customers to pay for each box individually even if they get a Legendary Box to replace all of them, perhaps it’s fair to offer a discount commensurate with those excess boxes.
All good points Jamey (really).
As far as discounts (including most industries), when you purchase more, it adds sales, and more sales mean more profit, and at some point, with all contracts from company to company, to purchases at Costco by individuals, a lower piece is usually offered (it’s a fact).
I understand that you probably negotiated a certain volume run for each game, and price, but had you told the manufacturer that you would purchase another 1500 sets of all components (in addition to what has already been negotiated), with all versions of Scythe, I am sure (confident) that you could get a better price, and be able to offer a better price to customers.
I am one of the backers of Everdell all in. I had wanted to buy the game for sometime, but didn’t purchase until the all in came out. The deal seemed good, and we knew we would eventually play all the content, so we backed it. I think the publisher, and etc, probably made good money on it (haven’t seen the internal agreements). But I think the all in was a planned project and costed as such (many parts were reprints and would be considered by publisher and game maker as new production runs and new volume). I wonder how many people (new orders) would have come for Everdell, and the expansions, had the all in Kickstarter not have happened? I think sales would not have been as high.
I can appreciate those would purchased components for more (in the past) and then see a discounted all in and been a little ill. I can’t help them. My terraforming mars certainly cost way more than the all in pledge (big box) and it’s ok with me because I like my pieces, and storage solution, and I have played over 200 TM games with it. But I don’t look down on those backed the big box, or worry about the big box. Maybe it’s just me, but I am OK with someone getting a better deal than me, if it’s available.
Again, I am not knocking SM Games. I am one of your biggest fans. I am a champion, follow your YouTube channel, and have spent a lot on SM games (replacement piece policy is the gold standard). But big boxes (with all content) have a place in the gaming industry, and other industries because they can offer a better value to some customers and they offer a bigger sale to the company that makes them. They are here to stay (even if not at SM games).
It’s true that economies of scale are a fact for *production*, but the same doesn’t carry over to the final sale to a consumer.
I hope you can see the risk involved. It’s one thing for Everdell to offer an all-in pledge with a reasonable discount–they then know exactly how many units to make. But Stonemaier? It would be a total guess for us to ask our manufacturer to create X number of, say, $300+ Scythe all-in Legendary Boxes. There’s the very real risk that we could end up with 500 of them sitting in four different warehouses, not selling to anyone.
An all-in bundle can make sense, if you have played the game already and want to get everything yourself. It can provide a more convenient storgage soultion and it saves the hassle to track down all possible expansions (which might not be in stock currently).
Depending on the number of available expansions this can become a costly all-in box, so at least for me pricing would also be a factor.
“We’ve said for years that we wouldn’t make an all-in big box for Scythe”
What was the reason for painting yourselves into a corner like that? I understand that once you’ve made that commitment, going back on it would upset your customers, but why even promise something along those lines in the first place?
Marco: Because I knew we weren’t going to do it, and I didn’t want to give someone false hope.
I am intrigued by your answer. What do you or your customers gain by not offering that option?
The various things I mentioned in the above post.
You don’t seem too eager to explain. But I will insist just once more.
Throughout most of the article you confront “a la carte” and “all-in” as if they were incompatible. Only at the end of the post you ask “Why not both?” and the answer seems to be that it only makes sense for crowdfunding, on which I agree completely.
My question is why you denied so adamantly that option even when you were still doing Kickstarters for your games.
And please, understand I am not trying to trick you into contradicting yourself or anything. I am genuinely intrigued about this, since it does not seem like you had anything to win by refusing this option from the start.
During Kickstarter campaigns, I did offer rewards that included everything we had to offer (see the “Complete Collector’s Edition” level of our 2014 Tuscany Kickstarter campaign and the Art Connoisseur Edition in the 2015 Scythe campaign). I don’t consider them all-in rewards, though, as everything in those products was newly created as part of those campaigns (even Viticulture was a new edition); that’s the opposite of an all-in bundle made in hindsight based on numerous items we’ve already sold separately for years.
And actually, the Complete Collector’s Edition for the 2014 Tuscany campaign is a good example on a smaller scale of why that type of product made in hindsight doesn’t work. We had already sold a small quantity of the first edition of Viticulture (around 2500 units) during the 2012 campaign (and the extra units to retailers). In 2014 when I ran the campaign for Tuscany, backers of the 2012 campaign weren’t happy that the only way to get the special collector’s edition box (a big, sturdy sleeve that held Viticulture and Tuscany) was to buy the whole thing–i.e., all-in–because they already had Viticulture and didn’t need it again. I think that’s one of the first times that it really planted the seed that ala carte is more considerate of all customers, new and old.
I honestly can’t remember when I started saying in clear terms that we weren’t making all-in versions of our games, but I do know that people started asking for it even before we were done making everything for Scythe. That’s another reason it just doesn’t make sense to me–like, say I gave in to those requests and made an all-in version of Scythe in 2018. But then after that I created Scythe Encounters, the modular board, and the complete rulebook. So do we then create another all-in version of Scythe? You’d have to do a new all-in version every time you add something else to the brand. Or you could wait until you’re 99% sure you’re done making new stuff for it, but you don’t know when that will be, so you then have this type of customer waiting for years instead of simply buying the game they want now. That’s why I make it completely clear up front that we’re not doing it (as noted in the above post)–not hypothetically in the future, and not retroactively in hindsight. It doesn’t work either way.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I don’t seem to be able to reply directly to it, so that is why I am replying to this message.
As a consumer, I can relate to what you are saying. It hurts to buy an “all-in”, definitive or bundled edition of a game only to find out about a new expansion that does not fit in.
On the other hand, once a game has run its course, complete versions are very much appreciated, like, for example, Mage Knight Ultimate Edition. I do not think any owner of the base game and expansions was offended by this new edition of the game (in fact, I am sure many happily purchased the new edition as well) and it gave players like me an easy way to get everything at once, in a single box, with an insert that could organize all components quite tidily.
It wasn’t even cheap, and I do not think anybody that purchased it really cared about it. It simply was convenient. Fortunate people like me, and probably like many reading this blog, can afford to buy luxury items like games without too much sweat as long as the price seems reasonable and not a rip-off.
Maybe Scythe has not reached its end and you still want to expand that universe. But, one day, it will. And then, a large single box with everything Scythe inside will be very attractive to new players, and maybe even to current owners of the game.
We’re definitely not making new content for Scythe. I still don’t see how a $300+ version of Scythe is more appealing than a $95 version though, considering that we continue to reprint everything else for people to buy when they’re ready. And as I noted elsewhere in the comments, there’s a huge risk to us to make both–if we made 1500 all-in versions of Scythe and couldn’t sell many of them, that’s up to $450,000 in lost revenue. Instead, we’ll keep doing it the way we currently do, serving customers who want everything related to Scythe and serving customers who only want some of those elements.
I agree. It does not make sense to blindly produce a $300 complete edition of Scythe. That is why, a few messages ago, I mentioned that I agreed with your conclusion on the article: it only makes sense with a preorder system (or crowdfunding).
But, as a potential Scythe customer, I can definitely say that I will not buy the game part by part. And this is not a Scythe or Stonemaier phobia of mine. I feel the same about any game with more than 1 expansion. If I did not get them originally when only the base game was available, I wait until they offer a complete edition. I may even buy the complete edition even if I own the base game, like I plan to do with Colt Express.
And again, it is not because I want to save a few dollars. It’s convenience. I prefer to have everything neatly stored on a single box with a proper insert.
I know you offer the Legendary box for that. But that still makes me buy all the pieces separately and then organize them myself. That is work that I am not willing to do. Again, it’s about convenience, not money.
Well, let’s compromise, then. We’ll create a link on our webstore that you can click to add all Scythe stuff to your cart. Super convenient. If we do that for you, Marco, will you buy it? I can even personally take the time to craft your order if you’d prefer that level of service.
Of course, if you offer a product like that I would consider purchasing it.
But I just wanted to say one last thing: thank you.
I know that some of my posts (not only in this article) may be uncomfortable or challenging, and, this being your blog, it would be very easy for you to delete them and not have to deal with them.
Instead, you candidly engage and discuss like no other creator does. That can only be described as courageous and it is such a difference from that big other site that shan’t be mentioned.
I’m sure it’s tough but I hope you keep doing it.
Thank you for the conversation! This can be a nice test to see if a bundling app we wanted to try works as intended. Which of our webstores do you buy from: US, Canada, Australia, or Europe? We can set it up there specifically for Scythe to see if it works.
Canada!
Marco: I’ve followed through on my commitment, and we now offer an all-in bundle for Scythe on our various webstores (including Canada, as you requested). Let me know if you get it!
That is great! Maybe you can help me with a few questions. The Scythe collection on your website has many items and not all of them are on the bundle. Some omissions are easy to understand and other are probably justified.
1. https://canada.stonemaiergames.com/collections/scythe/products/10-scythe-expansion-miniatures, https://canada.stonemaiergames.com/collections/scythe/products/25-scythe-miniatures and https://canada.stonemaiergames.com/collections/scythe/products/7-scythe-airship-miniatures Can I assume that the base game and expansions already contain a set of these miniatures?
2. Why isn’t The Rise of Fenris included in the bundle? I can see that all the related products are out of stock at the moment. Is that the reason? If so, can we expect the bundle to include The Rise of Fenris once you have stock (probably at a higher price)?
The Rise of Fenris is indeed out of stock in Canada right now. You can sign up for a back in stock notification for it; when it’s back in stock, we’ll add it to the bundle (the bundle won’t work at all if any item within it is out of stock).
Yes, as noted in the descriptions for those miniatures, they’re already included in the game and expansion. Extra miniatures are for painting.
Thanks for the answers. Simply a friendly tip, you may want to add “These are already included in the game, but some people like to have an extra set for painting.” like on My Little Scythe minis description to the other miniatures. It makes it much clearer to the buyer.
What I think might cater to the needs of big box-enthousiasts (without changing your policy) is providing an all-in option on your we store. Just a package deal that people can buy with one press of a button. I don’t think it’s a big dealbreaker for most that they have to put it into the big box themselves. But this way it’s costumer friendly + it gives them a guarantee that they buy every product that is on the market.
I was planning to suggest this too! I have no idea whether it’s technically feasible using the shop tech that Stonemaier’s store uses, but it’s certainly an idea – one “product” in the webstore that actually adds all of the Viticulture related items to the user’s cart, and they can then go to the cart and remove any they don’t want before checking out.
Of course, such a thing may be quite technically difficult to achieve (having seen backend code for similar types of webstores)
We’ve tried bundles in the past, and the complications we’ve found are that (a) they’re confusing for fulfillment centers because you have to create a new SKU for the bundle that doesn’t match with each individual item in the bundle and (b) they don’t typically sync well with inventory levels for each product. However, we have an upgraded version of Shopify now, so it might be more viable than before–I’ll talk to our web dev about it, particularly for these brands with organizer boxes.
Nice explanation of the thought process. With regards to the “big up front investigation” part, I wonder how many of those folks – if any – are looking to acquire a large deluxe box to resell it? I see occasional comments from folks who are in this to resell games, sometimes after playing and sometimes not.
I like your current policy.
I would observe that if you are selling all the expensions of a game on your website then it should be easy to to add a “please put this game and all its expansions in my shopping cart” button on the website. I don’t see how that differes from the big-box option.
I do not usually buy big-box offers, though I did buy the deluxe master set of Snowdonia on kickstarter. That deal met my needs at that time.
I am enjoying Wingspan, and especially the European expansion because that adds the birds from my home area. I would need a really significant discount to buy a big box with all other continents in, simply because they are not of the same value to me. I doubt Stonemaier could find a price fair to both parties.
In truth, had Stonemayer offered the permuation of a basic set and then add the content(s) of your choice, I would have opted for European only. I understand that was impractical to get the world of Wingspan underway, but perhaps once the whole globe is covered it may become practical to break down the starter set into a true “basic for any game anywhere” and the true North American birds which then beomes an expansion. This would mean folk outside North America could buy “Base Game” plus “My home continent” for less than “Starter Set” plus “My home continent” – and getting the price on the shelf down is going to become important over the next few years.
I also really like the idea of the ala-carte method but having an area where all related products and/or expansions are visible and can be easily added along with what you are purchasing. This is a great way to inform certain customers that more items exist for this product as well. Or maybe have a part of the product page that lists how to buy everything available for the given product.
I’m one of those people who has a “collectors” mentality, If at all possible I always go for the all-in/deluxe bundles. I see you mentioned Everdell about his as well. I had received Everdell from somewhere (might have been redditgifts possibly). Well, it sat untouched/still wrapped when the Everdell KS came along. I decided I liked it enough that I sold my copy to a friend at just below MSRP and went in on the all-in KS.
I honestly don’t see the reason now to do both in todays world as it caters to everyone. For those who don’t want it all they can get what they want ala cart but those who don’t have to think about it and can just grab it all at once can be appeased as well. With technology today you can even do it on your ala-cart system. Whose to say a bundle has to be priced at a discount?
I like the ala carte options because it allows me to spend less up front to determine if I like the game and if it’s one I want to invest more time/resources into. I especially appreciate that I can purchase separately a “big box” that will house expansions and upgrades once I decide I want them. It allows you to be a more selective “collector” which is a bonus if a world where social media promotes the “buy now and buy everything immediately because you don’t want to be left out” feeling.
I do think that having a separate SKU, that especially for a game that is almost 10 years old, would likely have you with copies sitting in a warehouse, and its hard to gauge demand, versus the flexibility from both a customer and producer perspective is likely better all around.
I think the good compromise is what Deep Water Games does with Welcome to. They sell everything individually, but they have an “All In” bundle on their web store that includes a discount for bundling everything together. I know that when they put that bundle on sale during the pandemic, it was all over my news feed with people saying, hey the Welcome to bundle is back on sale.
This is likely easier as most of the expansions don’t add much more in shipping costs, and are mainly pads of paper without boxes. With Stonemaier its easy enough to do this on your webstore, and champions automatically get a discount, but it might be interesting to see how a bundle with periodic sale for an all in work for Stonemaier, from a business perspective.