Is the Kickstarter Mindset Blurring Reality? – Stonemaier Games

Is the Kickstarter Mindset Blurring Reality?

This weekend, I saw a note in the Red Raven Games newsletter that Ryan Laukat is working on a new game, Now or Never, in the Near and Far world (I loved Near and Far, particularly the skill test mechanism). I was super excited to see this news, so I popped over to BoardGameGeek to learn more, and I was even more excited after reading the description.

It was on BGG where I learned there that Ryan isn’t using Kickstarter for the new game, and it was neat to see the support for that choice in the forums. However, there were a few baffling comments, most of which were along the lines of, “Since it’s not on Kickstarter, I can’t also buy X when I preorder it” (X was either metal coins or another game from Red Raven).

Kickstarter isn’t actually synonymous with metal coins or other games. Kickstarter is simply an ecommerce platform. Yes, many games on Kickstarter offer special add-ons, deluxe editions, and sometimes the ability to buy other games from the creator. But you can also go to pretty much any publisher’s website and buy promos, accessories, deluxe components, and their other games, often ship from regional fulfillment centers.

It’s almost as if Kickstarter campaigns have conditioned some people to think that it’s the only way to get deluxe components, special versions, or even their other games. This blurred reality concerns me, especially as a creator who hasn’t used Kickstarter for over 5 years (yet that hasn’t stopped us from making and selling fancy accessories).

A few of the comments delved into the topic of stretch goals, which is a whole other can of worms. Stretch goals are not the only way to enhance, expand, and add variability to a game. Plenty of games did this out of the box well before stretch goals existed. We continue to do this at Stonemaier Games–in fact, for an upcoming new game we’ll be offering a Collector’s Edition directly from our webstore, followed by a standard version for distributors and retailers. And you’ll get the fancy version from us within a few weeks of preordering it, not 8-12 months later.

Obviously Kickstarter has blurred the reality of publishing and deluxification. So I propose this: If you’re excited about the potential for deluxe components, instead of immediately asking a creator to go to Kickstarter (which is a massive undertaking), simply ask the creator if they plan to offer deluxe components.

That’s basically what I did after I read the thread on BGG. I contacted Ryan, mentioned that I was going to write a blog post on this topic, and asked if he wanted to share why he wasn’t going to Kickstarter with Now or Never and if he was thinking about offering some special preorder options. Here’s what he said:

“When I ran my first Kickstarter campaign in 2011, the top funded tabletop campaigns were closer to $100,000 than $1,000,000. Back then, you could enthusiastically present your game prototype, sometimes with only a few pieces of art and a handful of small stretch goals (like “1 extra card!”), and get funding. Now, Kickstarter has become extremely crowded and competitive. A campaign must be a big event to get people’s attention. There is a huge focus on “how much free swag” is included, and I’m finding that element is, in some ways, taking over the job that I really enjoy, which is designing and illustrating board games.

I say this knowing that running a successful campaign can be extremely exciting. And I never could have been able to create games for a living without our backers. This time, I’m trying a different approach that I hope will allow me to spend more time designing and producing art for the game and less time planning the Kickstarter event. Now or Never is going to release straight to retail, but we are making plans to offer a limited pre-order, with custom metal coins and maybe one or two other bonus items. Although we haven’t nailed down all the details quite yet, we plan to make the product an exciting one without having to run ourselves ragged in the race of stretch goals and add-ons.”

That’s a fantastic response that shows how Ryan is looking out for fans of Red Raven Games. I absolutely support that approach, and I look forward to preordering Now or Never from their webstore when it’s ready.

I’m curious what you think about this topic. I completely understand why some people are accidentally equating Kickstarter to deluxe components, special versions, bundled options of games, and region-friendly shipping–is there any way to break away from that misconception?

***

Also read: The Deluxe Dilemma

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68 Comments on “Is the Kickstarter Mindset Blurring Reality?

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  1. I have so far avoided all kickstarters moreso because I have a few gaming friends who bemoan the fact they still haven’t received games they backed eons ago!

    I can see how easy it is to get caught up in the promise of all the ‘bling’ and FOMO, but it’s not a buying approach I want to take. Buying direct fro publishers is different and I bought Tapestry and Red Rising in that way.

    I live in the UK and preordered and paid for a copy of Now or Never through a game store called Meeples Corner and hope to recieve it sometime this month.

    I think kickstarter is pushing the prices up because of all the hype and is getting very expensive. I did consider backing Scarface recently, but just thought it was a crazy price and will take my chances when it eventually hits retail later this year.

    It will be interesting to see where it al goes, but I prefer buying from FLGS or direct from the publisher.

    I think a model where publishers discover games and help to get them to the market may be a better model.

  2. There are some simple answers for me – all pointing at the fact that KS at present is a better consumer experience.

    1. Visibility, centralised and easy access.

    It’s the same reason people go to Amazon, or to a shopping mall. Or why they use FB.

    How many people know they can buy from a publisher website? How many publishers offer that? How horrible are on average publishers websites? How many websites/newsletter you’d have to scan to be updated on the latest (assuming you are a medium gamer)?

    2. People just used to Kickstarter model (and possibly liking it a lot because of the default story mode?)

  3. […] game news: Jamey Stegmaier, designer and owner of Stonemaier games, asks if the Kickstarter mindset is increasing consumer confusion around things like ‘deluxe’ components and special versions of new […]

  4. I have backed over 100 games on Kickstarter and the FOMO is very real and can be very frustrating when a publisher keeps adding more and more add-ons (many Kickstarter exclusive) that I end up spending more money than I wanted to or should. It adds a lot of stress too. So I appreciate when publishers just add all the deluxe components from the beginning and only do one or two add-ons.

    As far as RRG and their web store preorder. I totally understand how frustrating this can be for international boardgamers. I wonder if Ryan could figure out what the minimum amount of pre-orders from a country or region would need to be to make it worth the cost to offer shipping to those countries and challenge gamers in those areas to spread the word so he could offer pre-orders in those places too?

    1. David: It depends on the timing, which Ryan hasn’t announced (part of my point in the article is that people shouldn’t assume that a publisher isn’t looking to provide for non-US customers just because they’re not using Kickstarter). If Ryan is running the preorder before the games ship out of China, he can ship the correct amounts to each fulfillment center. If he’s running it closer to when the games are ready for fulfillment, he can do what we do and simply estimate how many customers are in each region and send that amount (plus a buffer) to each region’s fulfillment center in advance. And even if he ships everything to the US, he could then collect all the preorders and freight ship the correct quantities to regional fulfillment centers. :)

      1. Of course, the irony there is that to do that he will presumably have to have a system where the pre-order is up for a limited period of time and that the pre-order only is available on his webstore for international purchase, which sort of runs back into the whole FOMO problem by a different path. With pre-orders he could certainly re-create the foreknowledge that Kickstarter provides for shipping and fulfillment, but currently he seems to have no channel for taking international payment. If the intention is to make an international pre-order on a webstore that has been firmly established in the minds of international fans as having nothing for them then I would think that getting that information out as quickly and clearly as possible would be absolutely vital to that plan, which sort of taps into the place where I imagine some fans are currently disgruntled. People shouldn’t assume that a publisher isn’t looking to provide for non-US customers just because they’re not using Kickstarter, but on the other hand, publishers should be aware before making major changes to their established method of working that having all relevant information on what those changes mean for dedicated fans is a good idea. Also, that if they don’t, bad feelings that might result from confusion might be a shared responsibility.

  5. Shipping is a huge piece of the puzzle for Kickstarter in my opinion. Sure Red Raven might offer a special edition on their website, but they don’t ship to ANYWHERE other than the US. That’s a massive limitation to who has the ability to get said special edition. The same goes for many designers. Their inability or even lack of willingness to ship even to Canada from the US for a reasonable price has stopped me from ordering directly multiple times. At least with Kickstarter I have the opportunity. Now if designers would produce special editions and add ones and release them to retail (like all the Scythe goodies for example), now we’re talking. I love Red Raven Games, I own almost all of them, and I would own all the add ones and extras they release, if they’d ship to Canada for less than a small fortune. Distribution and availability is the only reason I use Kickstarter.

    1. I can understand your frustration, and I think the question to creators is if they can ship worldwide more effectively (the Kickstarter platform is completely independent of shipping decisions).

      1. Not quite true? Maybe for bigger games with a guaranteed worldwide retail release – or a guaranteed demand at the point of release (ie not a sleeper hit etc). For more risky releases Kickstarter means you know in advance how many copies of the KS need to come our way in Australia (say) and can plan/budget accordingly and send them all together to Aetherworks for distribution. Direct shipping to Oz from the US is pricy, and worse some don’t offer it which is a shame – despite the cost it’s actually better than ordering from the US into the U.K. (where I used to live) as the import fees etc kick in quickly in the U.K. whilst there’s a much higher threshold over here.

        Basically if you’re an Aussie you look at announcements like this and think ‘hope that includes us’ which for a Red Raven game it probably will. Our FLGS’s also really go the extra mile to source the hard-to-get stuff which helps but that’s not so true in all countries!

        1. Chris: We haven’t used Kickstarter in years, and all of our products (new and old) are available at Aetherworks. I understand that’s not the norm, but my point is that the question/request for creators isn’t, “Ugh, why aren’t you using Kickstarter?”; rather, it’s “I live in Australia and would love the option for fulfillment from within my region. Is that possible?”

    2. Hi, I am UK and Red Raven has given me a shipping price for the new game – good one actually – cheaper than most kickstarter projects – had to pay dratted VAT though.

  6. I totally agree with this. Another perspective is that with this “demand” for some grand KS exlusives or extreme minis, it has become extreamly difficult for small publishers to get the funding they need.

  7. Hello, I can understand Ryan very well, because I’m sure that every game designer would rather care about his game than whether his game is funded.
    I’m still from a generation where it was natural to build a prototype, write a rule, and make an appointment with an editor from one of the established publishers. But the established publishers have to make a profit at the end of the day and therefore often shy away from the risk. Many good games disappeared in the drawer again in the 90s and early 20s (Kosmos wanted to withdraw the publication of “The Settlers of Catan” because the responsible persons believed that the game was too demanding and it would not sell). So I had self-published a game of mine in 2010 and also tried to fund a game of mine on Kickstarter in 2017, because there was no interest from the publishers.
    Ryan is a well-known small publisher and already has a lot of followers, but what is a game designer to do who is not as well-known as Ryan. And yes, the effort to make a game on Kickstarter is becoming more and more extensive, as are the games themselves. In the beginning, the supply of Kickstarter titles was small, but as the popularity and demand increases, so does the demand from backers. Since I’m not in the comfortable position as Ryan, I’m going to face this competition, although I feel like a lost dinosaur. I like these discussions here on your site Jamey, especially the different opinions expressed here, it shows how lively our scene is. Stay healthy.
    Lutz

  8. Prospective backers have behaved more like consumers as KS has not done an adequate job of vetting the projects it claims to support, which is why in many practical ways it has become a store for pre-orders (see almost any CMON campaign).

    I applaud Ryan’s decision and will support his efforts by purchasing N&N from his website when it’s offered. I felt as though your comment about ordering other RRG components were a little disingenuous, as historically backers have been able to order some items from previous campaigns. I thought such questions were appropriate.

    1. Thomas: I agree that questions in general are appropriate, but not if the assumption in those questions is that Kickstarter is the *only* way to get other games/products from Red Raven Games. In fact, given that the Red Raven Games webstore is easily accessible by anyone right now, I think people could simply go to the webstore and see if something is/isn’t available there. If something isn’t available, the question for RRG is, “When I preorder Now or Never, can I also preorder X or Y item that isn’t currently on your webstore?” Kickstarter has nothing to do with RRG’s decision to make those products available again.

      1. We can indeed all access the RRG webstore, but only those with a US address can actually order anything from it …

  9. This whole topic of whether a designer should or should not use KS strikes me as the pineapple-pizza debate but on both sides.

    – People who dislike KS claim it is ruining the hobby or should ONLY be used by small companies (as if KS were a charity). Threads like this one tend to pop up: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2579094/why-kickstarter

    – People who like KS ardently defend KS and make claims about what should be offered in terms of stretch goals, shipping, add-ons, etc. As if they deserve to dictate a campaign.

    To me, KS is just an economic model. There are huge advantages in marketing but also huge costs. Those costs are increasing with the expectation from the buyers to include deluxe stuff, stretch goals, and exclusives. Overall, I think it’s ok to use (or not use) KS… or pineapple pizza.

    Thanks for the post!

  10. It really has warped peoples perception of value.

    I see far to often a KS game show up at online retailers for pre order at a discounted price. Sometimes with stretch goals. Other times it is so steeply discounted at preorder that the price really offsets the difference in value of including stretch goals and/or free shipping is offered that deepens this divide.

    I miss the more trickle style to retail release of expansion content too. I understand that method probably moves significantly less units but considering the shelf of shame posts I see constantly I bet expansions released in the old fashioned retail way see a lot more play. You know the people buying the expansion for a game released last year or the year before intend to play it and aren’t just going all in on the new hottness.

    People even actually believe games have no visibility without the KS platform.
    When Frosthaven was announced I wondered why Isaac chose to come back to KS. Was it really worth the 10% or whatever, cut KS would take? Mentioning this on BGG and in FB threads MANY people were very insistent on the idea that KS is just where you go to find out about games. I tried pointing out to these people that they were on FB/BGG/discord talking about and discovering games. Digging deeper it seemed a lot of these people actually believe that Frosthaven would not have happened without KS. As though the designer that just dropped the highest rated boardgame of all time could never just open pre orders on his own website and be successful. The thought to them was absolutely preposterous. Very similar situations happened with Heroquest. People were literally saying it would not fund on hasbro pulse. Are you kidding? That was THE dungeon crawler for an entire generation. The nostalgia for that could have raised hundreds of thousands with a freaking craigslist ad.

    Clearly other companies are out to prove they dont need KS, gamefound popped up, gasbro pulse is here. Maybe we will see something similar to the streaming wars. Everyone wants a piece of the pie so people have started pirating movies and shows again, but in the case of games I just think people will look to retail more.

    1. While I agree with many points, and would prefer each company to come to KS just to get started, then to go on their way and establish their own sites and manage their own business, I have to agree with many; KS is a ‘market place’ where stalls are set up, and pulled down, hawkers yelling out their wares, selling week after week, while others sit quietly, and are not seen again after. Its the place to be, to get the most views.

      Heroquest is one of the most interesting ones, it should have, could have been the no.1 backed game on KS for years to come, had it been done ‘just right’ could have easily topped 25mil. many factors stopped this, licensing, shipping restrictions, box size, etc, yet in the KS backers eyes, it failed, because it didn’t top 10mil, reaching the ‘fake’ goal of $1mil doesn’t count as being successful, because, just like you said, doing it on craigslist, still would have raised the $mil they ‘needed’

      I still go to my local game shop to remind myself that games are still being invented and are out in retail, yet, I have had no compunction to buy from them, there is no desire, need or even want to buy these games, its a box on a shelf with some art, if I know someone who has it to show me, then why do I need to buy it, someone else in my social circles has it. but KS? I’m getting a game every month.. why? I still don’t comprehend.

    2. When I order expansions immediately with the base game from KS, even though I would prefer to buy it separately after I’ve tried and liked the base game, it’s because of shipping costs. Everything’s all about the shipping costs as usual. I don’t want to pay up to 50% more to get it later because of this.

  11. Honestly, I’ve been turned off of Kickstarter, mostly because it’s become a way for larger producers to have grand and elaborate campaigns where they charge MSRP+ for the base game and *maybe* an exclusive. Seems like earlier on it was a vehicle for smaller producers to get their foot in the door and actually get a start. I’m more than willing to back those campaigns. It’s especially silly in the scenario where either the game hits retail before backers get it, or it’s available at a discount shortly after backers get it.

    1. Same here.
      It seems like it is just big companies trying to get full MSRP oit of pre orders now. So often you see the game up for pre order at online retailers at a discount before the pledges even ship.

      Granted with a lot of these they may be sans stretch goals but whwn they are the stretch goals hardl seem to make up the difference in price. Especially with games in the $100+ range since mini market or whoever is probably offering you free shipping too.

      1. To be fair, of the 232 tabletop projects currently live 12 of them have $100k+ pledged, which is around 5%, so to say that its just big companies just doesn’t seem accurate. Meanwhile, 185 of those 232 projects have goals under $10k.

        While its true that a small minority of big projects attract a lot of attention, and pay for a lot of advertising, the vast majority of Kickstarter games are from small creators or individuals with small to middle sized projects. There seems to be an underlying opinion that only campaigns that fund in the first 72 hours and massively over fund by completion of the project are real successes which I think is creating a negative self fulfilling prophecy about what Kickstarter is or isn’t. If backers turn up to small projects with little advertising and support them despite their not being able to pull in a huge crowd then what they’ll get is small projects that can’t pull in a huge crowd of their own with advertising, if they only turn up when a big project from a big company rolls out their social media and advertising campaign, then all they’ll get is big projects from big companies. Back the projects that you want to see and you’ll see more of the projects that you want to back, Kickstarter is the place that backers make it.

        1. I think the ‘problem’ with the bigger projects and companies behind it is that it increases the expectations for a lot of backers. This isn’t something only for board games but something with Kickstarter in general. In the early days of Kickstarter you pretty much just needed a good idea and that was sometimes already enough. Now you also need to make sure you have everything else also like marketing, design etc.

          I think the big benefit of this is that the overal quality has increased a lot but I sometimes do wonder if certain projects (and the companies behind it) fit within the Kickstarter ideology or if it is just a safe way for them to invest in something new.

          1. I think that there’s a difference between backers being led to expect a fleshed out and complete idea and expecting a big project though. The thing is that for many backers their tendency to demand that a game be near completed is less driven by big companies offering completed projects and more from the result of backing some of those projects that amounted to an idea and a prayer and seeing them collapse. I’m generally resistant to the idea that a problem is created by Creators putting out well produced and planned projects with a professional approach to both the Kickstarter platform and campaign management and production.

            You now need to have enough in place to show that you’ve proven you have the skills to make a game, and that the game in question is likely to be worth making. That’s the bottom end of the Kickstarter market, the $5-10k projects, and that’s been shifted up from below by projects that didn’t show that folding, it hasn’t really been dragged up by the existence of million dollar campaigns. Now, do you need more investment, advertising and work to post a project at the top of the most funded board and be able to parley that project into distribution, major coverage and a lucrative career? Yes, but I don’t think that’s shifted the nature of what Kickstarter is or was meant to be. The small projects are there, and are still doing what they were designed to do. Creators that want Kickstarter to do much much more for them have to invest much much more into it, but that doesn’t seem unreasonable or unfair.

            I’m also not sure that I follow the often mentioned dichotomy that Kickstarter is hugely expensive now and requires massive investment of advertising and presentation while being a place for some companies to easily get up front money with low risk. Having distribution deals in place before printing is a far safer and more certain low risk method of launching a game. Its true that there are certain companies who seem to have nailed down a formula for raising large amounts on Kickstarter, but that formula is neither certain nor free and there have been high profile wobbles more than once. If its getting harder and more expensive to succeed on Kickstarter, then its getting harder and more expensive, its not getting easier and cheaper for the companies at the top of the most funded boards and harder for everyone else. If anything, those companies have to keep pushing a bar up that they’re raising to avoid having a relative failure while creators that never intended to bother those most funded boards have the same marker they always had, a sensible goal reachable with an intelligently presented campaign.

  12. I suppose my question is this… Is Kickstarter (and other such platforms) harming the boardgame industry or helping? Producers and designers might answer differently that me as a boardgame collector.

    I have to say it’s only enlivened my love of boardgames and my desire to support projects. It feels much more like I’m a part of the engine, facilitating the creation of new and better gaming.

    I love Stone Maier games. But I’ve never felt part of the story. My money is obviously appreciated, but that feels like about it. The same is true for most other games I’ve purchased over the years… Except for crowd funded games. I have a role, a place in the process, however limited that might be. And that adds a dimension to boardgaming that I really appreciate.

    So I guess I’d say there’s a place for both methods of launching games. If a game designer can find a way to give me that experience without crowdfunding, without the pressure and headache I’m sure it brings…well, I’m in. Until then, the majority of my boardgame budget is going toward new projects on Kickstarter and the like. Regardless of stretch goals and collector components.

    Thanks for creating space for this conversation. Now to read everyone else’s thoughts.

    1. I appreciate you sharing this, Larry, and I see what you’re saying about not being a part of the story. The best Kickstarter projects involve backers in the creation of something new, and I have a sense of pride and belonging when I’m a backer of such projects. I’m curious: Do you want to be a part of our story? Your time is limited, but if you want to be involved, I think quite a few people have become a part of our story by joining my weekly Facebook livestreams, commenting on posts like these and in the comments of my YouTube videos, watching and participating in the YouTube channel “The Mill,” becoming a Stonemaier Champion or Ambassador, or even simply by reading our monthly e-newsletter to see the progress of various projects. That said, I think we can do better, and I’m going to think about your comment to see what I can improve. Thank you!

      1. Thanks for the reply, Jamey! I appreciate that you invest the time to make this space interactive. And yes, I’ll check out those options for getting more connected to your work. Even by just sharing that info (here and maybe in other ways), you give folks a path to becoming a part of the Stone Maier world.

        I was chatting with my daughter today about this discussion. She’s an opera / classical music singer. We got to discussing the challenge of creating art. Many artists want to just create art, spend all their time and energy creating. They hate the selling process. Wouldn’t it be nice if people just gave artists money to create. It relates in a way to game creators. Why can’t we just spend all our time making great games. Not worrying about getting the games into the hands of gamers, turning them into excited fans who in turn promote our work. If we only had patrons!

        If crowdfunding platforms are utilized well, they sort of make that a reality. Creating a space for game makers and patrons to join together, bringing games to life.

        That’s a picture of what I’ve experienced and hope makers experience. But clearly that’s not always (often?) the experience on one or both sides.

  13. This was a great read and got me thinking. Typically with a Kickstarter I am more inclined to get add-ons (metal coins, neoprene mat, deluxe components, additional games, etc) than I am to worry so much about stretch goals. Only one game really excited me with a stretch goal and it was a social stretch goal to spread word of the game. (Age of Atlantis) There is a Poseidon figurine that sits in the middle of the board that grew .5mm for every 50 shares on Facebook. This was exciting to me and I kept checking to see if it would hit the max size of 130mm. (it ended at 110mm)

    Most the time though I feel stretch goals add more wait time to the process of receiving a game you backed because there has not been enough thorough playtesting and design for the stretch goals that are being added. Something as simple as an extra card can ruin the experience if you feel it is overpowered and strategically not available for everyone to get or counter if not tested enough. (whole other topic that Rodney Smith has discussed)

    I understand the reasoning behind Kickstarter and why a company would run a campaign vs going straight to retail and I appreciate that Kickstarter exists for this reason. Some games I might have never seen or like mentioned below might not have access to purchasing or based on language/shipping it might halt my purchase. There are some designers who most of their games are on Kickstarter and have no stretch goals because they have future expansions and things already in the works, but the game is solid as is. Shem and his West Kingdom series had over $1.7 million in funds from the 3 Kickstarter games and all he offered were add-ons of previous games and metal coins. (No stretch goals)

    Keep up the great work Jamey and I can’t wait for the reveal in a few weeks. I enjoy that there is going to be a collectors edition. Thanks!

  14. Good for Ryan! I hope it works out. People complaining don’t realize how that making a Kickstarter is NOT want Game Designers want to do. We want to design games, not sell them.

    Creating Kickstarters is a HUGE endeavor. The less time he spends on that, the more games we get.

  15. The rise of Etsy and affordable home 3D printing and laser cutting (to add to more traditional options for crafting deluxe components at home) seems to me to undercut the importance of official deluxification, and to ease concerns about limited availability. I know those options aren’t for everyone, but they put a downward pressure on aftermarket prices which should keep most such bonuses more affordable. So it seems to me that this is a very sensible time for Red Raven to pull back from Kickstarter.

    1. I think you bring up a solid point. I have found small shops on Etsy that make some truly premium game inserts that offer excellent functionality, such as at the Game Trunk store. Additionally, I have purchased stuff for games like Tzolkin that really add to the experience. At some point, more folks like Jamey and now Ryan are going to make the shift

  16. What has turned me off to backing Kickstarter campaigns is the relentless upsell by the creators at checkout. Needing to click “no, I don’t want to buy more,” and click “no, I don’t want to upgrade” and click “no, I don’t want to buy that special whatever.” All this just to get to a screen to enter my address and pay for shipping. Once I couldn’t find the correct button and had to go back and undo the order twice just to not buy extra. It’s almost like they’re intentionally trying to make the checkout process confusing.

    I once contacted a creator to say that the checkout wasn’t clear if I wanted to maintain my current order. His response was it’s not his problem, it’s the pledge manager. Well he contracted and hired the pledge manager, which makes it his responsibility, the way I look at it. Then I gave him the details of what I experienced trying to keep my current order, and he asked if I get angry driving by billboards. Never more.

    1. I agree. Jamey’s post is how KS blurs reality and turns people off to retail. But it also works in the other direction – making value buying gamers turned off to KS.

  17. I’m guessing it’s my comments that you found baffling on the BGG thread – and I don’t appreciate your downplaying of my opinion just because it doesn’t agree with your own – and note that there is no mention in any of your thoughts about the significantly increased cost of non-US direct from publisher purchases. Postage has more than tripled this past year, to a point that makes ordering anything bulkier than a card stupidly expensive.

    Red Raven Games’ online store, for example, doesn’t even accept U.K. orders. You (and Ryan) say all the right things, but just how available will it be to offer expanded goodies in a direct to consumer manner that does not use mass regional-specific fulfilment? Will the foreign fans simply be ignored (discounted as being of less importance), if we *cannot* pre-order such content directly. Will their store see such a significant overhaul it can deal with mass international orders? Will they be setting up regional distribution partnerships that can offer the same pre-order bonuses or add-ons? Will they offer them separately upon proof of receipt? I’ll only be happy once a firm answer is provided

    It doesn’t help that until this post there was no official word from Ryan (which is surprisingly poor given his fan engagement of the past), so everything was conjecture. Despite being asked by several people, only you were able to get a response by virtue of who you are. Now we all have something a little more substantial to base a discussion on / argue over.

    Feel free to reach out to me on BGG or through the email provided for this comment if you want to discuss further and consider a dissenting opinion – even if yours is pretty set in this regard. I appreciate the additional info your post has provided, but it doesn’t answer the concerns of many fans.

    1. James: With shipping, the question still isn’t, “Why aren’t you on Kickstarter?”; rather, it’s “Why aren’t you using regional fulfillment centers?” Stonemaier Games ships from the US, UK, Canada, and Australia–we keep our inventory available in all of them.

      I didn’t see Ryan tagged in the thread you were talking about, but if he saw the thread, he would probably feel more welcome there if people were asking the right questions. Also, Ryan will reveal aspects of his projects when he’s ready to do so–even in my email to him, I told him that I completely understood if he didn’t want to comment. For any creator, you’ll know the answer when they’re ready to respond. Respect goes both ways, and this tone is one of entitlement, not respect: “I’ll only be happy once a firm answer is provided.”

      Just to be clear, James, there are opinions, and there are facts. It is a fact that publishers can–and do–offer promos, deluxe upgrades, their other products, and region-friendly shipping directly from their websites, just as some creators do on Kickstarter.

      1. I disagree, Jamey. It is not entitlement to question whether international fans will be treated to same as US fans. The latter can currently purchase titles, expanded content, and add-one directly from Ryan’s store – which is US-only. The rest of us cannot. Simple as. Perhaps he will adopt your model – I sincerely hope he does as it seems a good system – but until he says so officially, we don’t know. I – as a long-time fan and supporter – want to know, as it affects me directly. It doesn’t concern you, given your connections, I get it, so no skin off your nose. I might be the same if our positions were reversed. But I will show the same level of respect and support as a producer does to me, which here is sadly insufficient.

        Given all the speculation and uncertainty since the game’s reveal, all it would have taken from Ryan is one little sentence to clarify his current position and plans. From there, he might get the ‘right questions’ you suggest are needed to coax him into providing some info. You got some details, but the rest of us didn’t (after weeks of asking for clarity) – and yes, I have tried to ask Ryan and Brenna directly with 0 response.

        1. I would imagine that it is quite a busy time for Red Raven as Sleeping Gods is getting rolled out, they are incorporating voice acting into Above and Below and the new game is gearing up to be officially revealed. I cannot believe the sense of entitlement that some ‘fans’ feel they are owed. Maybe sit back a wait until a formal announcement is made with more detail, and then comment. Perhaps I am incorrect and missed the announcement that the game will not have worldwide availability? I see a lot of jumping to conclusions and assumptions being made without an official response. It isn’t like the game is going to appear for pre-order today on short supply without any additional information or preparation.

          It seems that ‘Fan Entitlement’ is the opening theme to game production in the 2020s, even non Kickstarters, I’m afraid. Just another curse of the Twitter age where someone assumes that since they are able to get in touch with you, that you then owe them a complete answer in their time schedule. Just sit back and let ‘those in the biz be in the biz’ and all will be right. And if not, so be it.

          In the end, remember that these are games… for entertainment… not worth the hate and stress. A pile of cardboard, ink, wood and plastic combined with imagination, creativity and love (especially in the Red Raven and Stonemeier sectors). No one is perfect, not everyone can be pleased, THESE ARE GAMES.

          1. “Just sit back and let ‘those in the biz be in the biz’ and all will be right. And if not, so be it. ”

            Therein the difference between us – what you see as “entitlement” – employed here merely as a passive-aggressive attempt to dismiss the concerns – of what I would descibe as “active encouragement” to try and ensure that I – as a non-US fan (no quotation marks necessary, as that was very much another attempt to dismiss my points) and customer – have the same opportunity as one based in that one single country.

          2. No one is dismissing your concerns, James. We’re challenging the way you’re expressing those concerns. Instead of bemoaning a creator for not going to Kickstarter and demanding answers, you could have just commented on BGG, “Hey, RRG, if you’re reading this, I’m really excited about this game, and I would love for there to be region-friendly shipping for Europe. Thanks!”

  18. I guess part of the question is if fans of a company that grew on Kickstarter and attracted those fans through Kickstarter has fans with preconceptions about that company and Kickstarter, or even the wider market generally. What I mean is, if you have a fan base who have been buying largely through method X and then you announce that you’ll be selling through method Y, whatever X and Y are, those fans are going to have misconceptions and odd ideas about the change. I don’t think its a matter of an overall misconception about the possibility of deluxe editions, upgrades etc. existing outside of Kickstarter so much as a specific issue with the fact that people don’t like change. People get used to a particular publisher doing things a particular way and react when that changes.

    I’m not a big fan of the idea that a project has to be a massive, top funding mega event to be a Kickstarter, or that that’s what Kickstarter is all about, its part of the same myth that a campaign must fund in the first 48 hours to be successful. Far more of the projects on Kickstarter are small and relatively humble creations that quietly roll up to 100% over the course of their campaign and do very well for themselves. If a particular creator repeatedly has, and requires, several thousand backers for each campaign then they’re going to find the Kickstarter to a different entity, but that neither defines Kickstarter or Kickstarter campaigns and feels a little bit like a champagne problem. To be honest, the process where a creator finds that once they’ve built a company with a reputation, expectations, distribution deals and such like a crowdfunding website begins to feel unwieldy seems like a reasonable one.

  19. Thank you for this article! As a small indie designer/publisher, I find the topic very interesting and can share his sentiment on putting your hours towards new games and developing them. Since I am working on a campaign right now the nights get shorter and the tension gets steeper by the minute. Kickstarter has become a somewhat “whant it all culture” and it is getting harder for small publishers to meet the very high expectations.
    Taking a step back and not using Kickstarter is just understandable if you don’t really need it.

    Might I ask a different question here Jamie?
    We are all influenced by other games and mechanisms used. Now and then so strongly as a designer that you incorporate small parts in your own games.
    An example: I love Scythe. Thank you for designing it all these years ago! In my game there is a mechanic that determines how many resources a certain worker costs which is revealed when the previous worker is taken away. Similar to the production chain in Scythe.
    I am considering recording my influences here in the rulebook. Should this be done, is it even allowed, or should something like this be omitted?

    Thank you!

    1. David: Thanks for asking about this. Like you, I’m inspired by other games all the time. If there’s a direct influence, I generally try to mention it in the rulebook, though it’s not expected. It’s certainly allowed. :)

      1. Thank you for answering! Awesome! I will gladly take your approach and tell the people what direct influences there were to design the game :)
        If you ever want to check it out I would love to give you a super quick tour.

  20. This is a great topic to raise and from a personal standpoint, the timing is perfect. As a small press publisher who has released 10 RPG game books that have been all self funded one book at a time then promoted and demonstrated in person at nearly 30 conventions across the U.K., France, Germany and the US over 10 years, it was a massive personal undertaking both in terms of time, effort and cost for someone doing that part time in addition to my day job. I am just moving towards my first Kickstarter Campaign as I see this as the next best thing to getting my upcoming card game to a wider audience with a bit less of the upfront cost and not being able to meet gamers face to face, which has always served me well with around 60% of my sales coming from direct customers. However, I am indeed now facing growing costs to try to stand out enough as I see incredible videos, graphics and massive ad campaigns being put out by other KS campaigns. I always prided myself at the likes of Origins or Gencon Indy having my trade booth next to the likes of Hasbro etc. and still managing to do really well through the passion for my game setting of Cursed Empire. Now I am trying to see how to stand out from the crowd on KS. Many of the points you have raised hit the mark in what I am feeling already. Another point I would like to raise. I successfully ran an independent gamers convention in the U.K. with my wife over 9 years where we had around 300 resident gamers over 4 days of intense gaming (indiecon) and where players would bring their prototypes, home brew games for playtesting. Some of these were hand drawn cards through to high quality small demo print runs and we would playtest over 80 different games over the 4 day event. The aim was to bring more of these games out. I am concerned about where KS seems to be going with game releases and the impact on some perceptions. The jury is now out for me personally as I approach my first KS. I guess if it doesn’t fund, I will simply go back to how I used to release my games. It would be great if a handful of smaller game publishers did try and set up something else that serves them better maybe. This is what I started doing with Indiecon. Even the traders who owned game shops who attended gave a priority to indie games in the inventory they brought to our events. I somehow get the feeling that some of you benefited from the earlier access KS have you to funds to truly kickstart your companies and do this full time but what I am seeing now is that KS has become swag city….

  21. My two cents – Ryan and Jamey, running established brands with a history of delivery, and established ecomm sites, customer base and logistics channels, have a lower burden to bring a critical market than someone publishing their first game.

    Kickstarter fills in a lot for a new designer by leveraging the network of people who buy similar products and a search and curation system to highlight successful and probably likeable projects. The tradeoff is competition with other projects and a level of work dictated by the competitive process.

    I see why established companies stick with crowdfunding – the thrill, the network, and once you have learned from the process its easier to repeat it.

    I also see why established companies go their own way, even though it is a pivot from the Kickstarter process and skill set.

  22. I do view Kickstarter as a way to sometimes get other games from the publisher with the benefit of combined shipping. Like in the Tiny Epic series.

    Kickstarter serves many purposes, as a pre-order platform, a place for new developers to get their products out there, a place to discover new products from publishers.

    With a number of products that have become available in retail before or right after I receive mine, I am getting over the whole fear of missing out.

    It is great that established designers can find a way to continue to be successful using something other than Kickstarter.

  23. I’m all for this approach, especially from a seasoned developer with a proven fanbase. I also appreciate that he is planning to offer a deluxe limited edition, which I hope I do not miss out on. Ryan is a great talent, who seems to only want to treat his fans right and deliver what he’s passionate about. I hope more seasoned developers will follow this path that Ryan is laying out and that stonemaiergames had already pursued.

  24. Would have been a great title to have on Kickstarter. “Now or Never on Kickstarter, back it Now or Never”

  25. Totally agree with this approach. May be effective only for established publishers, but I don’t watch the full Kickstarter presentation in any case (though I’ve pledged 50+ so far). I personally get really frustrated at being asked to pay a premium price a year in advance, but FOMO mandates it. I love the Stonemaier presale approach, where I have time to evaluate a title, can prepare for the presale, but then know the first printing is poised for distribution, rather than just in design mock-up. Glad Ryan is trying it as well

  26. I’ve noticed amongst the gamers I know that Kickstarter is a sort of… ‘person-specific’ flash-in-the-pan. The pattern tends to be: person discovers board games, becomes gamer, discovers Kickstarter, buys too many games over a few years, fades away from Kickstarter, discovers actual gaming priorities (which don’t include always buying deluxe editions). Most gamers I know are at varying points through that journey, but we all seem to mostly abandon Kickstarter at some point and come away from over-deluxified games with too many promos, or waiting years for games to arrive. We come back to our FLGS, or finding other ways to support games.

  27. Very interesting read. I wonder if the KS = big project with lots of media attention is something that happened naturally, or it was actively promoted by Kickstarter. When it started it was a great way of getting in touch with the creator….now I feel every single company and designer has a social media reach. I think that the usage of KS will drastically shrink in the next 5 years.

    Side note, I have always wondered why even though there are many crowdfunding sites, none is as successful (at least for boardgames) as KS. Do you have any idea why?

    1. I think Kickstarter’s secret sauces are (a) critical mass combined with (b) their “your friend just backed X” notifications. The combination of those two things has led to market dominance among crowdfunding platforms, in my opinion.

  28. Dang. Reading Ryan’s response is straight-up terrifying as a first-time game designer who is soon to be launching a Kickstarter campaign.

    1. Take heart, Wonmin. Your campaign is your own as much as your product is your own. You get to tell the story. Kickstarter’s product, like eBay’s, is connection and information. Use that to your benefit. Not every game is Fall of Avalon or Unsettled with 250+ custom components. Focus on the stretch goals that enhance the game and don’t detract from production. Or keep it to one good solid core level.

      1. I rarely back game projects on KS, not really my niche, but “keep it to one good solid core level” seems like such good advice over all markets. Parceling out small modifications via stretch goals can get really tedious. Some projects I am backing just because I want to buy the thing but it doesn’t actually exist yet for lack of funding. When there’s too much in the way of extra merch or add-ons, it can be frustrating because those are extra production costs/time/logistics that have to be factored in and could cause potential delays. This was all just a long way of saying I agree with Jeremy. Keep it simple and expand as seems feasible. Best of luck with your launch 💙

  29. For me, kickstarter went from “I hate it and don’t understand why I would take the risk”, to “This is awesome! I want to back more!”, to “This is bloated and I hate it” in the span of two years. I’ve only backed a short handful of games and I don’t mean to say Kickstarter doesn’t have its place, but overall it’s a flash in the pan for me personally.

    I’m a huge fan of getting the word out there that not every game has to go to kickstarter first and I absolutely love that you (Jamey) are making a conscious effort to help that word spread.

  30. Really interesting to hear, as I didn’t know it was going to be a retail release.
    I’m really happy for RRG that they’re able to do that.
    There’s some big companies that use KS exclusives as their business model, where 75% of what’s in the campaign is exclusive, which gamers love until they miss out on a campaign.
    I personally think offering a preorder bonus, and then separate optional upgrades that can be bought is a great way to do it. It got me to start buying from another publisher directly, and I can say I’ll be preordering this from RRG as well if there’s bonuses. Otherwise I’ll be happy to support my FLGS since it’s in retail :)

  31. I think this is a great vision for Red Raven games and applaud Ryan Laukat’s approach. I too feel like Kickstarter has become an avenue for games to get bloated and hyped for “stuff” more than substance. Not that Kickstarter is bad, just the “more, more, more…” focus seems to be showing up increasingly with games these days. I still back games on Kickstarter, but find the rate diminishing. I backed too many games in 2019, then reduced a bit in 2020 and see myself even less compelled these days. When I have backed a game on Kickstarter in the past, I always feel tempted to go all-in even though I don’t need to (and probably shouldn’t to practice better financial stewardship) due to FOMO and the “better deal” if you get it all now compared to later. Lately, I find myself being more inclined to wait until retail and then decide if I want to upgrade with expansions and deluxe components after I have actually played the game. This will likely cost more money when I do decide to upgrade, but I will also likely upgrade more seldom and spend less in the big picture. I appreciate several companies who make their games feel deluxe to begin with (Stonemaier and Red Raven being two of my favorites) and hope that is the trend we see in the future. Thank you for presenting this article and to Ryan Laukat for sharing his approach with Now or Never. I really enjoyed my opportunity to play Now or Never online and am very excited for the release. I am also excited to learn more about “Gold” next month!

  32. I think the greater issue in this news, from a brand reputation and customer experience perspective, is a small or solo publisher announcing a game before having shipped the previous one (Sleeping Gods). On one hand, I wouldn’t mind this and kind of expect it from a corporate- or factory-scale publisher. But if you’re trading on an auteur brand and indy cred, it’s not a good look. As a backer, I can’t help but be a little disgruntled when it happens and it damages the publisher’s brand.

    I recognize there is a problem here related to supporting a small company and helping it prosper and scale. I’m not saying it isn’t tricky to know where those thresholds and compromises are that relate to growth, brand, and the goodwill of a customer base that perceives itself as a community.

    I daresay even million-dollar campaign backers whose numbers are legion perceive and identify themselves (and the publisher) differently (than they might in a traditional transaction) simply for having taken part in the crowdfunding campaign. Perhaps this is in the mix of reasons for a departure from Kickstarter, so not entirely off-topic.

    1. Ash: I appreciate your perspective, though I have no problem with publishers talking about the future while they’re still working on other games. Ryan has been extremely communicative about Sleeping Gods, and he’s not asking for our money for Now or Never. It basically just got a small mention in his e-newsletter and a description on Kickstarter. I look forward to getting my copy of Sleeping Gods, but knowing Now or Never is coming doesn’t detract from my confidence that Sleeping Gods is on the way first.

    2. I definitely understand the sentiment behind what you are say and agree to an extent. That said, while Red Raven Games are a small publisher, they have successfully fulfilled 16 KSers over the past decade along with a continual retail presence; Sleeping Gods makes 17 and is currently fulfilling. That is a bit different than a number of other publishers that launch a campaign every 2-3 months with multiple unfulfilled projects in varied stages of completion.

      1. Thank you very much for the replies. I very much agree about the difference you describe and appreciate both a longstanding reputation and the need for entrepreneurial momentum. And I recognize that what I’m getting at is very subjective, nuanced, and probably hard to quantify. It just doesn’t come off well for me at the moment and the result is that it creates, for me, a reputational demerit that the to-be-received game (not to mention the just-announced one) then has to overcome in the overall brand calculus. I am not arguing that it’s rational. :)

        1. I would argue that this is not the same thing you have mentioned. Sleeping Gods has already fulfilled in part of the world and the US copies are sitting at Quartermaster Logistics in Florida, with addresses confirmed. RRG has done everything correct here. Mentioning their next project in a newsletter should not be an issue at this point.

          Shoot, they had Rift Knights on Kickstarter several weeks back which they canceled, so this is hardly their first mention of what is coming next. For me, when the product has actually been manufactured and is headed towards its destinations, a publisher should be free to discuss what comes next.

  33. Great blog post – I get a bit concerned when game publishers start throwing in lots of stretch goals on Kickstarter and a few I’ve picked up have been unwieldy with extra components – some have been too impractical to shuffle all the extra cards, haven’t felt as tight or as well balanced with lots of extra content that felt rushed in the last throws of the campaign.

    I’ve preordered games direct from publishers to get a couple of extra goodies (most recent was Raiders of Scythia from Garphill as it came with metal coins) and that’s ideal as I feel I’m getting a wee reward for getting in there early – no need to ask for too much :-)

  34. Interesting article – I have just finished reviewing some other companies Kickstarter – it’s no doubt going to do well. You can get the base game and an enhanced game which comes will all kinds of cool stuff. But, there is a certain level of overproduction going on – the Kickstarter bar is high and to compete with some of the big guys you need dozens of (animated) graphics, videos, mock-ups of ‘stuff’. etc. just loads of $ spent up-front.
    Just look at the whole frostpunk thing – they raised millions of dollars and the things going to be enormous when it lands.

    The whole Kickstarter thing is very much how much STUFF can I give you?
    want the game? sure. With minis? yep. Oh and metal coins, and laminated super sized cards, and wipe-clean player mats. Supersized. The whole thing is kind of taking on a McDonalds style ‘eat until you die’ approach. Can’t I just buy the basic game? does it really need all this sh*te.. sorry stuff. Does it make the experience of the game itself any better?…

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