After getting hooked on the first Red Rising book in 2014 and then the second book, Golden Son, in 2015, I had a thought that has probably crossed the minds of most game designers: Is it possible that I could design an official game in this world?
Red Rising isn’t the first intellectual property (IP) on which I’ve worked. When I discovered the half dozen or so illustrations available from Jakub Rozalski’s 1920+ world in 2014, I reached out to him, and we collaborated to create Scythe. A few years later, when Between Two Cities designers Ben Rosset and Matthew O’Malley had a playable prototype for a Castles-themed game, I contacted Bezier Games about one of my favorite games. Hence how Between Two Castles of Mad King Ludwig came to life.
Is an IP Even Worth Pursuing?
But Red Rising is a bestselling book series with a passionate fan base. At this point, it’s a fully fleshed out world spanning 5 books (a 6th is in the works). This is well beyond the scope of anything I’ve worked on, nor did I know if a Red Rising game is something author Pierce Brown even wanted.
Also, with a rough idea of the additional costs and stipulations to follow if we actually got the tabletop rights to Red Rising, I had to wonder if it was worth it. Sure, I loved the world, but would others? Would a decent number of Red Rising fans also want to buy and play a game based on the books? Are the characters and the world unique enough to pursue an IP instead of just creating a world of our own? Would gamers who don’t know the IP dismiss it outright, or would they still be drawn to the game (and hopefully, in turn, the books)?
First Contact
Back in 2015, I figured I’d give it a try. I reached out to Pierce’s literary agent, Hannah, about the tabletop rights for Red Rising. At the time, the rights weren’t available (most likely they were wrapped up in a deal focused on other media).
I want to pause here for a second, as this is a major consideration if you’re eyeing a beloved IP: You’re probably not alone. There’s a decent chance a production company has already picked up a comprehensive media option. So I don’t think it hurts to toss your hat in the ring early. You can basically express your love for the IP and request to properly pitch your game when it’s ready. At worst, they don’t reply or they simply say they’re not interested.
Second Contact
In 2017 I decided to try again, and this time the tabletop rights were available. I think it also helped that by this point I had a bestselling product under my belt too (Scythe).
I had a call with Hannah and Pierce to learn more about their hopes/preferences for a Red Rising board game, which mainly involved making something awesome and accessible for fans while still providing a great experience for hobby gamers who might be introduced to Red Rising through the game. I also sent Pierce a few of our games so he could review our production quality, and I reread the first trilogy.
However, it took me quite a while to design a game deserving of the Red Rising IP (specifically, to co-design it, as I only figured it out by working with friend Alexander Schmidt). But when I shared the good news with Pierce and Hannah in 2019, they revealed that the tabletop rights were no longer available. Or maybe they were. It was hard to tell.
This is probably the most difficult aspect of getting an IP: the legalese. If there is a media option for the IP, does it include tabletop games? If seems like a simple question, but depending on the contract, it may not be that simple. And it may take a long time for lawyers to figure it out.
What If Things Don’t Go as Planned?
So Alex and I took a calculated risk: In the hopes that everything would work out, we forged ahead with the design. We playtested locally and worldwide. I commissioned art.
Our backup plan was that if we didn’t get the tabletop rights to Red Rising, we would retheme the game to another dystopian world with a fascinating-yet-disturbing caste system. We would change names, images, and locations. The game would pay homage to Red Rising without infringing on any trademarks or copyrights.
Fortunately, however, it didn’t come to that. In the spring of 2020, Pierce shared the good news that we had the rights. We forged a contract, paid an advance, established expectations, and agreed on a royalty on future sales.
How Involved Do They Want to Be?
Throughout this time and in the days that followed, I tried to respect Pierce’s time as much as possible. It was my job to design (ultimately, co-design) and publish a game; it’s Pierce’s job to write books. So I’ve only contacted to Pierce to see if our launch date worked for anything related to his book schedule, to share a fancy prototype in September to make sure we hadn’t botched anything big, and to get his thoughts and approval on the box art.
Each IP holder may differ in terms of their desired involvement. Pierce plays tabletop games–in fact, he informed me last year that he was undefeated at Scythe–but that doesn’t mean he wanted to be involved in the game design process. Nor did I ask for him to promote the game. After all, a huge part of the reason I wanted to publish Red Rising is to share some of my favorite books with my fellow hobby gamers.
Other Considerations
For any IP, you’ll probably need to pay a royalty on revenue. So we had to factor that into the MSRP of the game while still offering a compelling product at a reasonable price.
An IP also presents new challenges for related accessories. Like, if I want to make, say, a Wingspan puzzle, I can do that, because Stonemaier owns the IP (of course, I would first talk to Elizabeth, the artists, our team, etc). But for Red Rising, if it’s not abundantly clear in the contract, we would need to go through a detailed approval process.
Also, typically we just make one version of our games, but for Red Rising we decided to offer a Collector’s Edition directly from us and a standard version available only from retailers. In that way, we can hopefully serve all types of Red Rising fans (old and new).
Results
We’re just a week into the announcement phase of the Red Rising tabletop game, but so far things are looking good. Over 9500 people have signed up for a preorder launch notification (which is great, as we’re donating $1 to the ACLU for each person who signs up). The game has attracted the interest of retailers who typically focus more on books. And it’s been a lot of fun to see gamers discover the books and Howlers discover the game. We’ll see how the preorder goes in March!
Also, from a designer and publisher perspective, I’m really happy to have had this opportunity. I truly love the Red Rising books (and the game), and it’s been a pleasure to work with Pierce, Hannah, Alex, and everyone else involved. It’s a lot of work, and it’s not something I would do if I wasn’t truly passionate about an IP.
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What are your thoughts on this process? Is there anything I missed that you would like to know? Here are a few related videos about IP games:
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36 Comments on “Red Rising and Working with a Major Intellectual Property”
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[…] Overworld Games did it for Leaders of Euphoria. My feelings about licenses are somewhat mixed, as I discuss in detail in this article. I just think it’s pretty rare for a license to be worth the ongoing royalty […]
Hey Jamey,
These are truly great insights and I’m learning a lot, thanks for your contribution to the industry. Keep up the good work!
I don’t know if you’re willing to share this information or if it’s private, but I was curious as to how much royalty do IP owners demand? Is it going to affect the MSRP in a major way?
I’m guessing it’s going to vary in different situations, but I’m completely in the dark here, any help is appreciated.
Thanks Sadra! The royalty for an IP does impact the MSRP. I don’t know if there’s a standard IP royalty–it probably depends on the size of the IP–but I would guess it’s typically around 10% of revenue.
Jamey, I bought your game for the sole synergistic purpose of playing it while reading the books. I wouldn’t have done one without the other. That’s even fascinating to me! I felt that each medium could immerse me with the help of the other and so far I’m digging both very much. I played the game today with the Hunger Games soundtrack in the background and the experience was so fun that I felt so much more excited about the next chapter in the book. Kudos to your vision and work! Thank you for yet another top-quality experience such as Scythe and Wingspan that I own as well. Cheers!
That’s awesome, Stefan! Good choice of a soundtrack to listen to while playing. :)
Thanks for the interesting post Jamey! Are you awere if there are any studies or statistics about how well an existing fanbase converts to sales? I know some people might want to do it for their love and appreciation for that IP. But how about strictly from commercial point of view e.g. investing 5-15 % for basically marketing, you would expect to get some return on that investment. Of course some IP´s have more die hard fans and level of fandom varies, but maybe there is like some rule of thumb for estimating the value of the IP?
Vesa: I’d love to see such stats, but even for Red Rising I don’t know the answer. I think it’s probably a fairly small percentage of sales (from the fanbase or people who give gifts to fans), though it depends on the game. If it’s an inexpensive game, the percentage is probably higher.
[…] probably make another game based on an IP (intellectual property) at some point. Red Rising was our first big foray into this world. While there isn’t another IP that scratches as many […]
Hi Jamey.
Thank you for this article as it details just some of the ways that we do not develop games in a vacuum, but in a connected world with relationships that require legal and financial consideration.
I would like to focus on those legal and financial considerations, not particularly of the IP you are developing, but the relationship with the ACLU. That too is a relationship that you needed to form, correct?
Did you need to get special permission to mention them in association to your product promotions?
I ask because I am developing an Amazon Rainforest theme game. From the beginning, my hope has been to build an association with at least one conservation group doing positive work there. It seemed a beautiful synergy. I could provide education and awareness of those efforts to our game supporters, and the organization could have a share of profits or proceeds, furthering any benefit from the exposure and also supplementing awareness in game supporters that their purchase/sponsorship is supporting positive action in the world. Win-Win as they say.
I have made great strides in this department but now I am quickly coming into decisions about legal matters, promises of profit or proceed sharing, all those fine print details, etc… I must admit this is where it gets a little scary.
Do you have any advice for how one negotiates these matters?
Are we always considering percentage of revenue or is percentage of profits sometimes offered instead?
What types of paperwork and or professional services might be required?
Scott: Thanks for posting your questions here, and I’ll do my best to answer them.
As for our donation to the ACLU, I’m not aware of us needing any permission to do what we did (for each person who signed up for a launch notification, we donated $1 to the ACLU). My only contact from the ACLU came afterwards when they reached out to me to thank me for the donation.
I think it’s great that you’re looking to support the Amazon rainforests. If I were in your shoes, I would simply do something similar to what we did: Link launch notification signups (or, if you’d like, sales of the game) to an organization you care about, and share what you’re doing with that organization on social media. That comes across as purely altruistic instead of you trying to leverage their reach, and if they’re excited about what you’re doing, they can share it as they wish on their own terms. There’s no paperwork or professional services required. You’re doing something good and donating to a cause you care about, that’s it.
For what it’s worth, I would be hesitant about tying revenue or profit to the donation, as it may feel to consumers that you’re upcharging them to cover the donation. That’s why I like our approach–it isn’t tied to a purchase, as we make the donation before anyone even has the chance to buy the game.
Thank you for the reply.
I see what you are saying. I’d like to present a different spin on it as I have a more expanded intention about this that maybe did not come across. The game has an educational intent and as such we are offering space in our instructions and a full color brochure card in box to the organization. It’s a bit more than just giving a dollar (which is an excellent idea though).
So I am indeed looking to build a partnership. And in regards to the upcharge concern, I could see that being an issue when you are obligating a portion of whole revenue, that money has to come from somewhere. If you are limiting it to percentage of profits, does that not solve the problem?
In that case, wouldn’t you be promising only money that wasn’t pre-obligated to anyone (apart from myself and future projects)?
Scott: I see what you’re saying, and you might be the kind of person who can genuinely win over a major organization and get them to work with you on an unpublished, unproven game. If you can do that, that’s awesome (and I have no experience with getting to that point).
But the way I see it, you don’t even have a game yet, and this organization is probably quite sizable. You would get WAY more out of the partnership than they would. So instead of trying to convince them that it’s mutually beneficial, why not just go ahead and create a great product, and in various places/ways, you can share your love for this organization? If the game is successful, you can then reach out to the organization to show them that you’ve demonstrated that you’re worth the partnership. I just don’t think you have any leverage at this point.
As for the money, from a consumer perspective, money is money. The people who are going to be frustrated by a perceived upcharge aren’t going to care if it’s revenue or profit.
[…] are now over 120,000 units in circulation worldwide. I shared lessons learned about Red Rising as our first IP game and printing the Collector’s and standard editions […]
Hi Jamie
1. In addition to the 5-15% share of revenue royalty fee, is there a fixed sum of money that ip owners can demand?
I remember licensing ip for non-tabletop related purposes and it cost a fixed amount of money and a revenue share.
2. I see games like marvel being published by different publishers. I assume each publisher has non-exclusive ip rights. Is that something that should be explored and would it help bring down the percentage of revenue share requested by the ip owner?
3. Finally, I am sending my pitch to a major ip owner in days and the pitch focused on the artwork, style, overall game feel, the rules, and future releases. Would I need to include a commercial proposal and/or a marketing and distribution angle at this stage?
Thank you
Moe
Thanks Moe! I’ll do my best to answer below.
1. IP owners can request an advance on royalties or even just a one-time fee. I don’t think there’s any standard way to do or not do this–it depends on the IP.
2. My guess is the same as yours, and it’s possible it may impact the royalty percentage.
3. I think the only addition I’d make is to sell yourself and your company. Basically, why should they give you the tabletop rights to their IP instead of someone else? Part of this can be about your passion for the IP, and part of it can be data that supports your ability to make this IP a success in the tabletop space.
Thanks Jamie this is helpful. I highlighted my passion for the project in the email too as I concur it goes a long way in helping acquire an IP. Really appreciate you taking the time to read and comment on my post
Hey Jamey,
Thanks for those great insights!
Can you give any rough estimation what kind of royalty percentage on the revenues you would have to pay if working with IP?
It really depends on the IP, but I would estimate somewhere in the 5-15% range.
Many thanks!
Jamie,
Thank you for this! So timely. I have been working on a game for a few years and it playtests very well. Originally I targeted it toward the Scooby Doo franchise, but they required a literary agent to work with. Next I retooled it for Enid Blyton’s Famous Five books (still four kids and a dog solving mysteries) and they said they only work with successful game publishers.
Am I, as an untested designer, stuck outside of the IP world? How does one find a publisher to partner with. Do you just start cold calling game companies?
Thanks Ted! It does sound like it would help you to have a publisher at your side. Here are a few articles and resources about finding the right publisher (and how to approach the publishers you decide to approach):
https://stonemaiergames.com/how-to-pitch-and-not-pitch-your-game-to-stonemaier-games/
https://cardboardedison.com/directoryinfo/
I have a question I’m hoping you can help me with. I’d like to reach out about working with an IP I love, but I’m a little worried about doing it because I read that some companies don’t allow people to send ideas since it can get them in trouble if they make something similar to an idea they see. Is there a way to approach the IP I’m looking to work with in a way that prevents that while still setting up the ability to work with them? Or is that not really an issue with non game related companies/IP’s?
Thanks for sharing your question here, Perry! Do you have a specific, verified example of someone who contacted an IP holder to share their love of their IP and their desire to create a certain product in that world, was denied the IP, created a similar product (but one that did not infringe on trademarks and copyrights), and got in trouble with the IP holder? It’s entirely possible, but if there’s no infringement, I don’t think it matters if they contacted the IP holder or not.
I honestly can’t see any harm in contacting an IP holder to simply say, “I love your IP, and I would love to design a game in that world. Could I proceed to design such a game and pitch it to you at some point in the future?” Or even omit the second sentence.
Thank you for this response! This totally makes me feel better, because I realized that I don’t have any verified examples, I had just heard a story that might not be true a long time ago and it made me nervous about it. I appreciate the advice, it’s a big help.
I am well and truly looking forward to this. I’m not a fan of science fiction at the moment, however your designs got me looking into the books, as I remember you mentioning in a FB post once about you enjoying Brandon Sanderson’s books. Which I do too, so I thought if Jamey likes this book enough to make a game of it, it must be worth trying. So I bought the full set of 5 books.
Had them for 2 days and I am half way through the first book, it is really engaging. So I’m grateful to you for opening my eyes to a great book, I imagine the rest are just as good based on my experience with the first.
Any how a quick question if I may. Does the game spoil any of the books in any way?
Thanks Neil! I’m glad you’re enjoying the book. We made sure that the game doesn’t spoil anything. It introduces you to the characters, but there’s nothing plot or story related in the game.
This really shows that sometimes you just need to take a leap of faith!
Is there actually any big difference in the playtesting process when dealing with an IP? For example, do you test it more with people that are fan of the books to see how they react to the game?
Aarnt: That’s a good question. I did ask playtesters if they were familiar with the book, as I wanted to make sure they were having fun whether or not they knew the IP.
One of my favorite games based on a book is Pillars of the Earth. It is one that needs no knowledge of the books, though perhaps is not strongly tied to the plot of the book. I actually haven’t read most of that book. Could you make a list of favorite games based on a book or series of books? Especially, what games based on books are nearly as fun even without an attachment to the IP, or perhaps even in spite of an IP that’s not quite your jam.?
I cover a few books in the “favorite IP games” video above (you can see the description of it for list).
Are 3rd party accessory designers limited on what they can make because of this IP? If so, did that factor into your consideration to make the collector’s edition?
Yes, I think it would be a bit more problematic in this case, though I didn’t think about that when making the CE.
Thank you for sharing this peek behind the scenes, Jamey! As a playtester in fall 2019, I often wondered why some of your answers in your livestreams said the IP may not be available. It is fun to finally see all the pieces fitting together (even if this isn’t a puzzle ;-) )
This was my first playtest of a completely new game. (I’ve done several expansions for existing games.) It’s been fun to see how art and components play out without any real clue from a base game. I’m excited to hold, and play, the final version!
Great post Jamey – very interesting to get the background on how this came together. I’ll be very curious to see how the game is embraced by both the gaming community and the book community (would love to see a follow up post on that at a later date!).
Getting the balance right to appeal to two potentially disparate audiences can be tricky. I’m working on a game based on an existing video game/book series IP that skews quite young (middle grade) but we also want it to thematically appeal to adults and more traditional board gamers – and it’s been a challenge as it’s not always easy to bridge those worlds (in any medium, not just board games).
I also think the Collector’s Edition really makes sense in this context for those hardcore gamers and then that allows a more retail-friendly option for people new to the hobby, at a more palatable price point.
This is an awesome read. I actually tried to do the same thing with another IP (a reality TV show) but after a few conversations nothing really ever came out of it. I think it’s because I’ve had no experience in the industry they were a bit gun shy with regards to working with me. Maybe if I get to a point where my name / company is a bit more established like yours they might reconsider.
Shame because I love that TV show and I know my game would be perfect for its fans…
Well, don’t feel too bad. My wife is an established children’s book author/illustrator who is pitching an idea to a very famous TV IP – and even with an agent in one of the best literary agencies in the world, it has been challenging even getting the conversation started!