For today’s article, I’m going to post the Viticulture World Cooperative Expansion design diary that I posted this morning. It includes a big mistake we made, and I think the lesson learned is important for others in the gaming industry/community to know as well.
***
Today’s continent is South America (17 cards, medium level). The core mechanism of the South America continent is that players can leverage people from history who made a big impact on viticulture in that region. The history of winemaking there is as fascinating as it is problematic; therein lies the core story I’ll share today.
Co-designers Mihir and Francesco researched historical figures who were instrumental in introducing and implementing winemaking in South America. In this continent deck, each event card presents a short-term goal for a player to accomplish; if they do, they gain a specific character with a special ability related to vineyard-related mechanisms, like this ability from a character I’ll mention in a second:
In addition to our diverse oversight, proofreading, and playtesting team, we pay a cultural consulting service to review all our products for any unintended harm our games might cause to people of different cultures and backgrounds around the world. When the consultant noticed two conquistadors among the historical figures selected by Mihir and Francesco, she flagged the following concern for each of them, saying, “His conquest and his treatment of indigenous people has since cast him as more of a villain of history.” Her recommendation in its entirety was, “Be careful to not paint Cortes/Pizarro in too positive of light, as someone who brought wine grapes to the Western Hemisphere. If he did play an instrumental role, try to not emphasize his role too highly.” There was no recommendation to remove the conquistador characters, though in hindsight I should not have needed someone–even an expert–for me to identify this solution. It is solely my fault for not identifying and implementing the correct solution.
As a result, we included the following text to the first card in the South America continent: “The impact on winemaking by the characters described in this module came at a grave cost to indigenous peoples, and we do not honor the means or methods by which Europeans secured these lands.” Basically, we knew there was a problem, and we implemented what we thought was the right solution to ensure that Viticulture World could accomplish our overall goal of bringing joy to tabletops worldwide (and not causing harm). As it turns out, though, it was definitely the wrong solution.
Flash forward 6 months. Production is complete, and two of my favorite board game reviewers, Amy and Maggie of ThinkerThemer, have their advance review copy of Viticulture World. Maggie is originally from Venezuela, after playing a few of the early continents she was excited to play the South American continent.
In the video below you can see what happened next. In short, Maggie was surprised to see two of the worst conquistadors in history included in Viticulture World, and she was beyond bewildered that the expansion would ask players to partner with such terrible people to gain a winemaking benefit. These conquistadors are among the greatest bullies of the world, and yet they are consistently whitewashed among the annals of history. And now to find them in a beloved game? Maggie was devastated, not just because of her heritage, but because of all the people who will play Viticulture World and see these two terrible people memorialized in it.
Amy and Maggie brought this to my attention, and you can learn more about their response directly from them in the video below. I was heartbroken to learn that Viticulture World caused harm instead of joy to them (and to anyone). Even with the disclaimer included in the South America deck, I knew that we had made a big mistake. Yes, these conquistadors had a large impact on winemaking in South America. But these terrible people don’t deserve to be memorialized in any way in our game, especially not in the context of characters who give players special abilities. They never should have been included, and the recommendation across the board from the diverse team of people who saw the expansion in progress should have been to remove and replace them. Ultimately, I take responsibility for not realizing that the disclaimer wasn’t enough–I should have removed these conquistadors from Viticulture World a long time ago.
Maggie and Amy kindly agreed to talk to me face to face from across the world via Skype. They shared their experiences with me, and I listened. It was a difficult call. I could see the hurt I’d caused, and while I couldn’t take away the mistake, Maggie and Amy’s willingness to share gave me the opportunity to fix the mistake so we could avoid causing the same harm to others.
So we created a pack of replacement cards for the South America continent in Viticulture World. It includes a total of 6 cards: 2 cards to replace those that reference Cortez, 2 cards to replace those that reference Pizarro, 1 card to replace the first card in the deck (which references the conquistadors, which will no longer be applicable with the conquistadors removed), and 1 card explaining the mistake. The two replacement personalities are Isidora Goyenechea and Don Silvestre Ochagavia Errazuriz; they are mechanically identical to the characters they replaced. Everyone at Stonemaier Games, the Viticulture World team, and several helpful Stonemaier ambassadors in Latin America were involved in this solution, and Panda was very accommodating in printing the cards on short notice.
These replacement cards packs will be included in every Viticulture World package preordered from Stonemaier Games, and we’re also sending them to distributors and retailers worldwide to be included with every copy sold. You can follow me in tearing up the conquistador cards and putting them in the trash where the greatest bullies of history belong. The packs will be on our webstore for free for anyone who buys the expansion after the pack is in stock, and in the unlikely event we someday reprint Viticulture World, we will include the replacement cards instead of the originals.
I want to be unequivocally clear that I, Jamey, am solely responsible for not identifying and implementing the correct solution before we entered production for Viticulture World. I’ve tried to share the full story here because I think it’s important for people to know that this can happen even when a publisher is actively trying to avoid this type of issue by listening to a diverse array of designers, playtesters, proofreaders, team members, and consultants. But the blame starts and stops with me. In the future, in addition to continuing to improve the diversity of our oversight team, we will not publish any other products featuring people from real-world history, and I will not hesitate to cut any problematic element (instead of using a disclaimer as a safeguard).
My heartfelt gratitude to Amy and Maggie for being open to this difficult conversation. I would highly encourage you to watch the following video from them, as you can see the harm caused by our big mistake. Please be respectful and considerate of Maggie and Amy if you choose to comment.
102 Comments on “South America, Cultural Consulting, and Fixing a Big Mistake”
Leave a Comment
If you ask a question about a specific card or ability, please type the exact text in your comment to help facilitate a speedy and precise answer.
Your comment may take a few minutes to publish. Antagonistic, rude, or degrading comments will be removed. Thank you.
[…] After initial public disapproval and disappointment that such individuals were included, Stonemaier were quick to agree. They created a pack of six replacement cards to omit the conquistadors, which are now going to be included when buying Viticulture World. The journey has a happy ending then, but it’s baffling that something like this slipped through cultural consultancy quality checks. Jamey Stegmaier, to his credit, has held up his hands and taken full responsibility for this. You can read Jamey’s apology blog, here: https://stonemaiergames.com/south-america-cultural-consulting-and-fixing-a-big-mistake/ […]
[…] Modulen durch einzigartige Kniffe ausgezeichnet. Was allerdings zu kurz kommt und im Prozess der Spielentwicklung auch für Irritationen und einer Umgestaltung eines Moduls sorgte, ist die Aufklärung. Die sehr eurozentristische […]
Historically supported arguments are being censored on this page appealing to tone. That is the truth, no matter how you dress it up with good intentions. The same way indigenous Tlaxcalland and allies are being erased from history books.
There are rules for posting comments, and if those rules aren’t followed, the comments are deleted–this isn’t censorship. For any post on any topic on this blog, I don’t allow hate speech, hateful speech, blatant misinformation, whataboutism, or manipulation. Basically, stay on topic, stay respectful even if you disagree, and you’re welcome here.
Oh wow Jamey! I didn’t knew that the Goyenechea link I sent you would help to fix such important matter! I am very happy to be a small part on it! =)
You made a hugely positive impact, Matheus–thank you!
[…] South America, Cultural Consulting, and Fixing a Big Mistake […]
Hey Jamie. As a born and raised South American, I can relate a lot to what Maggie is feeling. I did most of my schooling in the 90’s in Chile, and back then Cortez and Pizarro were still being taught to us as these intrepid adventurers. Portrayed as great pioneers that brought science, Christianity and ‘civilisation’ to inferior peoples. People who made the world better, and who were (and are still) glorified with statues in public squares across the Americas.
It is so sad for me to think about all that now, at age 37 and after reading many history books. After learning about the direct (e.g. mass murder) and indirect (e.g. through diseases, displacement, etc.) genocide or the indigenous people’s of the Americas. The hundreds of years of brainwashing against our first nations was so complete, that most of us Latin Americans grew up not identifying as indigenous at all, despite having indigenous blood running through our veins.
So yes, this was a painful mistake for people like Maggie, myself and others. But we all make mistakes in life. The real demonstration of character is not about living a mistake-free life, but what you are willing to do when you make one. You owner your mistake, apologised publicly for it, quickly worked out a solution, and use your platform for others to learn from your mistake. This is a great example of how publishers should react when they make a mistake, and unfortunately many fail to meet this bar when they do so.
My only point of (unsolicited) advice would be to spend time and reflect on what the lesson is here. I can see how a blanket ban on all historical characters from any future Stonemaier game would eliminate this specific issue. But historical figures can offer an opportunity for (uplifting, empowering) education in a fun setting. Most historical figures are not responsible for genocidal crimes, and many lived lives that inspire people to this day. People like Marie Curie (a huge role model to many women in science, such as my mother and my sister), Jane Goodall (to those of us whose job is to try to save the planet!), Martin Luther King (to the civil rights movement in the US), athletes like Jesse Owens and Kathy Freeman (whose incredible example have made them icons against racial discrimination), etc. I just thought it might be a shape to let two horrible Conquistadors steal from us the opportunity to see other inspiring figures from history in some of the best games in the market.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, Carlos. I completely agree that the lesson here is not that historical figures should be removed from tabletop games. Rather, that’s a choice I’m making for Stonemaier Games specifically to avoid causing unintended harm.
Whith all respect it seems the Cultural Consulting was very poor. First South America is not a continent but one region of an all continent, second if the focus is South America then Cortez is non related at all, if you are talking about Hernan Cortes he was a conquistador in Mexico (part of North America), Pizarro is correctly related to South America.
Maggie (from Venezuela) could had been a better advisor than the ones you payed. It’s seems the new cards solve the conquistadors issue but not the geographic inaccuracies.
Thank you Jamey for admitting the mistake with the conquistadors and take accountability. After all these years, we have read your comments and seen your videos, we know that you always try to do the right things.
Here’s a comment in regards to this from designer Mihir Shah: “The history depicted in the continent of South America starts roughly around the 1500’s, at that period our research showed that Mexico was still considered to be part of South America (some articles even refer to it as Latin America). If my memory serves me right now, it is only sometime around the 1800 that Mexico started being termed under North America.”
> In the future … we will not publish any other products featuring people from real-world history
Jamey, I’m really curious to know more about this. Maybe it’s just a risk calculation on your part that it’s too hard or risky to deal with real history, but I feel like if someone as thoughtful and caring as you can’t do something like this, then how can we hope to move our industry forward? I don’t think the solution is to simply avoid the problem by only making fictional worlds (though I understand that’s the safer path).
Either way, thanks as always for talking so openly about these challenges, and for doing your best to do what’s right!
Ira: I think that’s a great question, and I wish I had even a halfway decent answer. There are many historical games featuring real-world people who seem to avoid the problem–I recently played Pax Pamir, for example, and it’s full of real people from history. Maybe look at those games to see what they do differently/better? Also, don’t pick the very worst people from history and pair them with jovial winemaking bonuses?
I don’t think there’s any shame in saying we were out of our depth here and we’ll do better at avoiding that in the future. For me, that doesn’t mean avoiding history altogether, but attempting to avoid subjects I can’t speak to from my own experience. Or since my own experience is so limited (I am, after all, just a single human being), find someone who can accurately speak for that experience. Viticulture World was ambitious in this regard, literally covering the experiences of the whole world. We live and learn!
Thanks for your thoughtful replies, Joe and Jamey!!
I agree there are other publishers who make games that include people from real-world history. I was reacting to the idea that specifically Stonemaier Games, who I respect and admire very much, would automatically “not publish any other products featuring people from real-world history.”
You have decades (centuries?!) of game publications ahead of you, and you’re a leader in the field. This is indeed a hard challenge, so maybe it’s best just to sidestep it. But I guess I’m trying to convince you, in the back of your minds, if something comes along down the line that includes people from real-world history, that you don’t pass on it automatically out of fear of making a mistake, or not knowing enough yourselves. I deeply appreciate the thoughtfulness and openness you bring to this industry, and the ways that you’re trying to make changes for the better.
Jamey, I respect your decision to replace the cards. Admittedly, I would not have made the connection myself to ‘celebrating’ these figures by their inclusion; however, seeing it now I can understand the connection. Learning to see the world outside of your own experience is a journey for everyone; not just one ‘side’ or the other.
Where I remain disappointed is in people’s inability to accept each other’s humanity. Bad people do bad things. Good people may do bad things. (intentionally or unintentionally) You’ve made an honest and good faith effort to right an unintended wrong and yet to some it’s still not enough. You admitted that you should have implemented a better fix and will do so in the future. Still, for some, not enough. And this (in my opinion) is what drives otherwise caring people to walk away from trying to do the right thing.
Likewise, when people minimize other’s life experience because they don’t share that experience it furthers the conviction that people are just ‘ok’ with what has happened in the past. When things like ‘nobody would have noticed’ are said, perhaps people should be taking the time to think about maybe more people should be noticing.
It’s strange, to me, the tendency to go after people trying to do the right thing while completely ignoring others who won’t give them the time of day and just continue on not caring about other’s concerns. It’s as if the person trying to do right and has shown themselves trying to be culpable for an offense should bear the brunt of the anger at all those who just don’t care about anything outside themselves.
By and large the world was built through abuse and exploitation of weaker people. This goes all the way back to ancient civilizations and nobody is immune. This is what was but doesn’t have to be our path forward. The world doesn’t need to accept ignorance nor does it need beat it with a stick to enact change. Nobody (again, my personal opinion) is responsible for what occurred hundreds of years before their lifetime. We’re all responsible for what’s going on today and how we contribute to it’s continuance or resolution.
While I understand wanting to make this right and proving so by the steps you’ve taken, I don’t think the matter should be a mark of shame for Stonemaier games. A learning experience, yes, a point for public shaming, no.
Thank you for trying to be a better person each and every day.
I think this is perhaps my favorite comment of many great comments in this conversation.
If you are willing to read this (and that is up to you), I want to provide a different perspective than the cultural side of things for a moment. The way many people here are speaking to each other is very hurtful and traumatic. Maybe not to everyone here, but it is certainly incredibly stressful to some of us. If we are going to be careful not to hurt people culturally when there are reasonable steps that can be taken–and we should–shouldn’t we also be careful not to hurt people individually?
There are a whole lot of people in the world who suffer from PTSD because of violence and abuse. YELLING and violent statements very much triggers it for me. I come to games to relax and for a haven from the stresses of life, not to listen to people spew hate and vitriol at each other. I began feeling the response in my body of emergency and alarm as soon as I came here because of wanting to watch a “Watch it Played” video and seeing this link.
Expressing hurt is powerful and helps us all understand things better. Expressing disdain, scorn for *anyone*, or vitriol does not. If you think someone needs to change their ways, you can be assured they will not because you hate on them, try to humiliate them, call them names, and virtually spit on them. Nobody has ever become a kinder person because someone tormented them into it. It just doesn’t work that way.
Judging who is a “terrible person” and who is “worthy” of something is a very slippery slope. Who determines that? By what methods? I am not saying there are not terrible people in the world, but I *am* saying, among the opinions of all who posted here, that there is no “one standard” for what that is.
If you are judging by your personal beliefs, or beliefs you have adopted from another source, or however you determine that, it will be different for you than anyone else. We all carry unique perspectives, whether we would have it that way or not. Ultimately, I do believe there is right and wrong, and a terrible and a beautiful, but I don’t believe I am the perfect authority on what is what.
Furthermore, I have learned to be careful–very careful–about judging people, because you can wind up very easily condemning yourself. It’s easy to pick out someone’s faults when they’re from another time or place, or very different than you, **or if you relate to them well**. We all know someone personally who can speak out very grandly against something and then be very cruel in the same or a different way personally.
That being said, I have no desire to play games with characters in history who harmed the world. But I also have no desire to look up a game link and read the choice of many people to be so absolutely cruel to each other, either.
I avoid social media for nearly everything besides posting pictures of my puppies for this reason. It is too easy to be violent with your words and to hide behind them, too, if you think you are on the “justified” side or simply because you want to get a rise out of people.
People like Cortes did what they did as controlling individuals who cared about only their perspectives. Many people on here have chosen to be the same: to try to control others and force them into their perspective. That’s called being a bully. It’s cruel. It doesn’t bring people to your side, but it does hurt people, especially people who have experienced past trauma. Cortes justified who he was because he thought it was his way or the highway. If you examine some of these posts, are they very much different?
Of course, Cortes also acted violently, and there is a huge difference. But I for one don’t want to experience people slinging barbs at each other in the way of words, either. Words hurt. Really. If we could speak to each other in kindness, and with true compassion to the feelings of others, we could make the world a far, far better place. But if we rail on and gnaw each other and try to verbally abuse people into conceding to our point of view or to flee in terror……we are absolutely bullies as well.
Love & kindness change the world in the ways I want, and I think in the ways a lot of other people want, too. <3 A thought.
There’s a lot here, and I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I’ve built Stonemaier Games out of a desire to bring love, kindness, and joy to people. You can see this throughout the content we create. I have no tolerance for anyone verbally abusing anyone else–I remove such comments.
These conquistadors committed abhorrent acts of violence to huge numbers of people. You asked if that’s different than someone making a comment or post on the internet, yes, that’s very, very different.
I think there has been a misunderstanding here. I did not mean that the violence is not different, I mean that the sentiment of hatred that was produced in some of these posts (I think they may have been removed; I have no desire to check) is the same sentiment as any bully throughout history. My point wasn’t that these cards shouldn’t have been removed. My point was actually to the posters making explicitly vicious remarks about other posters, that this isn’t productive or making the world a better place. I was writing specifically to point out that people who are claiming to hate violent characters and behaving in the same controlling, violent manner, trying to use hateful language for bully people into agreeing with them, are on the same nonproductive pathway. Obviously, there are huge differences between how we speak to each other and how we act….but neither are esteem-worthy in my book. I was stating that I was deeply saddened by how, instead of kind discussion, many people have chosen to rail on each other and label each other as “this” or “that”.
I absolutely agree with removing evil characters from the game. But it is very tricky to use historical figures at all. For example, one of the historical figures I looked up ran mines. Were these mines run with consideration to the workers, or were they places of enslavement and reckless deaths, as they have often been throughout history? I personally agree with removing historical figures altogether from future games. It is a very difficult road. A person would be very hard-pressed to find a historical character who made an influence in industry or economics or politics who did not oppress some people. My point about good & evil is that it’s very difficult to decide who is “worthy” of being put into the “hero” side of history and who is not. It’s easy to find villains. It’s much more difficult to find heroes.
There definitely are a few people throughout history who left a legacy of love and kindness. Most of them, however, weren’t successful in business. In fact, I can’t particularly pull up anyone in business who I can think of who cared about workers. I don’t have any interest in the game Carnegie and so forth for the same reason. Many of these industry leaders made their wealth through devastating working environments.
….That being said, there does seem to be something worse about coming in and invading a country and then committing horrible travesty rather than doing travesties to your own people. Then again, maybe not, because, in order to be horrific to your own people, you really have to betray them in a way that you don’t if you are coming in as a conquistador.
Believe me, I have no defense of the original characters who were removed. I totally agree with removing them. My point was that there are few people in history who we could all agree were heroes or at least “worthy” to put into a game. Deciding that kind of morality would create a wide span of opinions stemming from many different systems.
My other point was simply that it hurts to see people talk to each other in cruel ways. A lot of the comments directed at Jamey hurt, and directed at other people saddened me as well. That doesn’t put those people on the level of Cortes, no. It does mean, though, something we would all probably rather overlook: that we *all* have a tendency to try to bully and overpower people to get what we want….the same kind of sentiment that has haunted human history……….
I agree with you in almost everything, but still, I think that is very hard to compare a violence that eliminate a whole civilization (specially a civ the welcomed the perpetrator) to labor exploration.
[…] Así es, tendremos nueva expansión de Viticulture, uno de los juegos más populares de Stonemaier Games, que convierte el juego en cooperativo y nos permitirá visitar distintos lugares del mundo. La noticia no llega sola, junto a ella llega una polémica sobre ciertos personajes incluidos en el juego y la reacción de un medio lúdico estadounidense, y a esto le sumamos la posible confirmación de Maldito de no estar interesados en publicar esta expansión en español. Como Maldito nos visitará el Jueves, podemos preguntar directamente a Álamo acerca de la edición en si, sobre la polémica no hay mucho que añadir y tenéis la información en el blog de Stonemaier Games (enlace aquí). […]
It’s actually incredibly easy to deny any “benefit” from “superior European” technology. That European technology was built on the backs of the people Europeans colonized (and in some cases stolen from them). It is also the cause of the continued loss of Indigenous life and land in Canada to this day, not to mention the climate crisis. Indigenous teachings are very clear that colonial power didn’t improve their lives and for you to even suggest that the advancement of European technology somehow makes up for or in any way counters the loss of Indigenous cultures, languages, and children’s lives is honestly repulsive. So no, it doesn’t make sense.
I thought Jamey did the right thing and always comes across as utterly sincere in what he says and does. It helps to support a company when you like the person running it. Surely the easiest way forward would be to simply not reference real-life people, and give all the characters in your games made-up names?
Stacy: I think that’s a good solution in many cases (though I think it still depends on the characters themselves in some cases–I don’t think conquistadors, even with fictional names, have a place in Viticulture).
Willing to bet that if you didnt highlight it to begin with, no one would have noticed or cared.
You might want to reread the article. The decision to pull the conquistadors was made at the last minute precisely because someone noticed, and cared a lot.
Clearly people did notice and care. The aren’t exactly obscure historical figures and the conquests of South America are not ancient history for anyone who lives there, especially not Indigenous peoples. Your personal ignorance of the history of an entire continent does not mean that the people of that continent have forgotten their own history.
“I bet if nobody had cared, nobody would have cared”. Did you work that out by yourself?
I think too much blame is being laid at th feet of the consultant here. Their warning was clear, and ignored.
I’m sorry this isn’t clear from my post, but I don’t blame the cultural consultant. The responsibility to make changes fall solely on me, regardless of the recommendations provided (or not provided) by the various people who see any of our products prior to production. I blame myself for implementing the wrong solution.
Agreeed, sounds to me like they gave good advice for the situation, but you kind throw them under the bus based on feedback from just 2 people – hmmm
I’m not judging, criticizing, or throwing the advice under the bus; I’m just stating it for transparency (that advice was, “Be careful to not paint Cortes/Pizarro in too positive of light, as someone who brought wine grapes to the Western Hemisphere. If he did play an instrumental role, try to not emphasize his role too highly.”) I appreciate the various insights and perspectives provided by our designers, internal team, proofreaders, playtesters, and cultural consultant, and it is solely and ultimately my fault for not identifying and implementing the correct solution. The only person I’m throwing under the bus is myself.
“superior european technology”…
Just say you love imperialism, mate.
The fix was appropriate. The cards caused direct harm to people. We know it caused harm because the publisher already said it caused harm. Anyone who isn’t offended is politely invited to shut the fuck up, because their opinion of “i think this is fine” does not outweigh someone who was hurt by the inclusion.
As a south american, peruvian, living in a city founded by pizarro, I have no problems with them being in the game. They were an important part of history and we need to understand what happened, to avoid it happening again. We cannot cancel what we dont like just for the sake of it.
It’s not “cancelling” something people didn’t like. It’s removing the necessity of asking people to partner with people who caused direct harm to them from a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone. There’s a big difference between learning about something and trivializing it.
KeithfromCanada — Strong disagree. Viticulture is a game, not a history book. It’s their job to provide a positive play experience to the player, not to teach about conquistadors’ roles in colonization. Even if they left the cards in, there is no context other than “Get this dude, get a bonus wine token!”
Your “fail to learn from history” quote is a poor non-sequitur debate point because the goal of the game isn’t to teach history of wine making in South America.
Marty didn’t get the point obviously
I agree with Mary. These people aren’t cancelled, it’s a nonsensical phrase, but they don’t need to be used as non-contextual flavour text in a light game about viticulture. Terrible things/people can be used in boardgames to educate and enlighten, see Cole Wehrle’s upcoming John Company, but they don’t need to be incorporated into every game and are not suitable in certain situations.
I’m so tired of topics like this being brushed off as “not a big deal” or ignorant people talking about the long-term benefits of genocide. I think Maggie was right on point when talking about murderers and rapists being sanitized and talked about as heroes. I grew up in Argentina, and started to see a shift on young people in the 90’s with rock bands singing about “there is nothing to celebrate” (on Columbus Day). I don’t care if people label it as “woke police”, these conversations have been ignored for far too long. Maggie was also right when saying that are other figures to highlight that have been obscured on mainstream history, we just have to work a little harder.
Jamey, I applaud you for heading the mistake head on. You are setting an example for the future.
-Martin
“V Centenario” by Los Fabulosos Cadillacs, or “Cinco Siglos Igual” León Gieco, are great songs.
Agreed!
[…] Fuente: South America, Cultural Consulting, and Fixing a Big Mistake – Stonemaier Games […]
Well done, Jamie. This is just another noteworthy example of why I continue to be a loyal Stonemaier Games customer and will absolutely continue my Stonemaier Champion membership. You lead from the front and do it with humility, grace and civility that is too often missing in public discourse. A mistake was made, you took accountability for the error, I’m confident this experience will result in positive change at Stonemaier and you’ve made a reasonable and rational effort to address the mistake. Such is the behavior of a responsible Leader.
Well said!
Well said, Keith. That sounds more than reasonable to me!
Have you read the comment you are agreeing with carefully? There’s a lot of imperialist rethoric in there as well as a sanitized critique of Maggie’s call. The idea of “everybody should be included” does not stand to careful scrutiny. There’s a lot more people to celebrate rather than a pair of genocidal characters.
Also should I be thankful for the sugar and coffee industry built of the backs of slaves, as Keith suggests? Sorry but technological development cannot be an excuse for mass murder and exploitation.
Do not drink coffee and do not use sugar, then it will be trustworthy what you write about. Otherwise you either agree with it or give permission. It’s such a double morality.
Based on Jamey’s long and thoughtful blog post, I can only safely assume that Jamey too quickly scanned the comment and missed some of the glaring problems—an understandable outcome given that Jamey literally reads and replies to the majority of messages received on multiple platforms, a truly mind boggling feat!
Amy and Maggie are my favorite reviewers. Thanks for working with them on this!
Jamey, I admire your quick pivot, humility and aggressive strategy toward restorative justice. I can relate to the historical game design struggle.
I was working on a game design with another company for years about the Greek colonization of the Mediterranean. It was a passion of mine. I traveled to Greece for my career work and did some research while there. I even met with an historical expert in the field, a professor at Duke. The tension between working together in trade as fellow Greek city-states (Athens, Sparta, etc), and yet finding yourselves in occasional war with each other and competition for expansion (a best of fr-enemies dynamic) was really compelling to the company and game testers.
However, several folks began to bring up the dark side of this game. It wasn’t enough to convince publishers to turn away, and who knows if it would have been successful, It took longer than I would like to say to let it go. Ignorance was bliss, and as you said, once I knew I could not shake the conviction.
I began to research this problem in other historical games, and came across Puerto Rico. My wife is Puerto Rican, and as I shared with her about the game and the controversy therein and it made her upset. These were her ancestors, my kids’ ancestors. Once the problem became personal, the solution became clearer, which is why listening closely to those it is personal to us so important (which you have done). I discovered a horrible example of one game about western exploitation of Africa in the game company I was working with. Jesus’ question “what would it profit you to gain the whole world but lose your soul?” nagged at me and eventually won out. I decided to pivot, put it down, and chase a new idea.
The main problem with historical games seems to be that history is written by the powerful, because power creates opportunity to enact change, and history is the human story of change over time. Power is often gained through lies and violence, so if we are to tell the most potent stories of history (read: most significant moments of change), we are going to be telling the stories of violence and lies. How do we deal with this?
While I celebrate your response, I wonder if recreating idyllic fictional characters in a historical game to replace reprehensible ones is the best answer for the larger problem. I wonder what you would do if you could go back in time and redo this section of the game? How will this inform future historical games you might publish? I am intrigued by movies that tell history from minority positions. Is that possible with games without a reimagination of history? So much of what makes a game work is agency of the player – the ability to enact change: power. The main metric of a good game is accessible, interesting choices that provide reward. That is power. In history that is something reserved for the powerful, who sometimes lie and do violence to achieve it. Perhaps, choosing a global theme makes the problem inevitable and unavoidable. Does that mean well known or globally impactful stories must be not gamified, or if so severely edited?
Maybe telling lesser known stories from history is the best way forward?
Thank you so much for sharing this, Daniel! I think you answer many of these questions in the way I would. I think it’s highly unlikely that we would publish historical games in the future (it’s not like we’re known for such games anyway). But even in fictional games we try to be very careful with cultural issues.
I’m very passionate about history – I’ve been studying it for decades, both informally and formally, and I find it enormously frustrating how certain historical behaviours or events get treated in popular mediums. Games and movies and similar are not places suitable for effective education, so IMO we need to be careful what we include in or exclude from such media. Equally, though, they can’t be misleading on history nor should they produce unintended, inappropriate messages.
This is often a very difficult topic, as we have seen in a number of games of late, and we constantly see in movies especially in controversial aspects such as Orientalism, feminism, etc.
Nevertheless, I just wanted to say that I think Maggie and Amy addressed this in a very reasonable and rational manner, rather than simply becoming outraged which we see too often, especially in social media (not that I would have expected such behaviour from them), and I particularly wanted to commend you Jamey on taking such a prompt and meaningful response, which I think is the correct one in this case.
Although ignoring history is problematic in most cases, I think Maggie’s argument as to the effect of these particular character cards, and outcomes of both lauding those people and the potential contribution to a misunderstanding of what is a very complex history are matters that needed to be addressed, and I think you have done that in the correct fashion (although I would have been very surprised if you hadn’t based on my observations of you and your company).
A very powerful message. The cultural consultant expressed a very tempered opinion, a moderate and not an extreme one; even when an extreme one was called for.
That reminds me of other situations when tempered, or moderate positions, are favoured. I’ve spent many years in the climate modelling community. Scientists will temper, or diluted their message, even when the data suggests a message containing an extreme result is appropriate. The reason is simple: deliver a moderate message and be wrong because an extreme result occurred: “oh well.” Deliver an extreme message, and be wrong because a moderate event occurred, and you’ve just destroyed your career.
Is a similar reasoning behind your cultural consultant’s moderate message?
“Is a similar reasoning behind your cultural consultant’s moderate message?”
I followed up with our former cultural consultant after I originally heard from Maggie and Amy to see what happened and why the recommendation wasn’t stronger. Her response was as follows: “You explained to me that Cortes and Pizarro actually were instrumental in their role of developing viticulture in the Americas, so in that case we’re up against a classic dilemma in any historical game: to what degree do we portray the accuracy of history in light of modern sensitivities? We’ve faced this issue countless times in games I’ve worked on like Age of Empires, Rise of Nations, and Civilization. I didn’t advocate for their full removal because based on the information I was provided [all files for all continents], it was evident that their role in this process was vital to the historical accuracy, which is why I made sure to clarify to you that even despite that, they shouldn’t be portrayed in a positive light. And your inclusion of the disclaimer notice at the beginning was also a good step to help clarify this.”
I think you and the consultants hit the right note above and in comments that you’ve posted elsewhere: The problem was that the historical figures were portrayed in a positive light, specifically by giving special abilities to players.
Such is the importance of theme-mechanism integration.
Stonemaier might have encountered a different reaction were the designers to have included those figures in the game, with mechanisms reflecting the inimical effect of these people on the population. For example, these and other inimical figures could have manifested as visitor cards that the player must play in the next applicable season, wasting a worker action and potentially impairing the players in other ways (e.g., loss of influence). In a coop game like this one, no player would feel “singled out” by a bad draw like this, so the mechanism could add to the game’s player experience in a respectful way. I propose such a mechanism not to imply that the designers should have done specifically this, but rather to illustrate how a game could cover the breadth of historical figures without implicitly condoning historical acts of aggression.
Other than the issue of these specific cards, I see that the game is receiving strong praise, and I look forward to owning a copy.
That was hard to watch but I really appreciate Amy and Maggie creating that video and having the courage to post it.
I can’t begin to imagine the hell that Vlaada will be through when wokeness reaches Through the Ages. Napoleon? Julius Caesar? Genghis Khan? Columbus? Robespierre?
Those are all leaders that grant benefit to players’ civilizations.
And then there are all those shameful wonders built on the back of slaves that grant amazing abilities to players.
Anyway, Jamey, you encourage these kind of discourses so I guess you do not mind being educated by sensitive people every now and then.
But, please, note that there are thousands of us, silent, that will buy your games even with Pizarro or Michael Jackson on them.
Marco, while I can’t speak to those games, I think it’s important to consider the potential harm caused to people when they see some of the truly terrible people of history (or the creations that resulted from atrocities like slavery) in a tabletop game that is meant to bring joy. The solution isn’t always to remove them, as it depends on the portrayal and mechanisms, but it’s certainly on the table (and not for any reason related to “wokeness”).
I understand your position. I just think it is unsustainable. Right now, it can only be maintained because most of us decide not to be offended and leave things be. But we, white European privileged people could be as easily sensitive about Romans, Arabs, Catholics, Napoleon, Stalin, Churchill or the CIA.
We simply decide to let it go, at the moment. But if we see that that’s how it goes nowadays, we’ll just join the game, and it will be impossible to create anything besides full abstract games, books and music.
Marco, you REALLY need to check your privilege.
If you are playing games of conquest or war, it would make sense to have more morally reprehensible characters. But in a game like this we can definitely do without them.
I think you are oversimplifying things by saying “this group of people decide to leave things be”. It is simply not true that different cultures move all in unison. I personally was fine with the disclaimer, but clearly it was not enough for Amy and Maggie….so it is a matter of where do we set the line. Jamey decided that it was not enough, and it is his game after all. If he wants to remove some particular figures…why not?
This is not a historic game, its a game about winemaking. Cortez and Pizzarro arent really essential for winemaking (even if they plant some wine for mass), So an apt comparision would be putting Adolf Hitler in Modern Art, because he was a painter. You could do that, but what would you archieve doing that?
No one is asking to remove Romans, Arabs, Catholics, Napolean etc from games from what I can see. This is what is called a slippery slope argument. Like “gay marriage shouldn’t be legal because what next? beastiality?” That’s just a distraction. Literally no one was proposing beastiality and no one has since gay marriage was legalized either because that’s just not a thing. You are coming up with hypothetical situations based on your own unfounded fears. This is a situation that called/calls for change, not for a series of endless “what-ifs.”
Sure, and no one was asking to cancel Maus, but you start by yielding to a few books here and there because of some Twitter fires and then you end up redacting Dr. Seuss, Roald Dahl, To Kill a Mockingbird and Gone with the Wind.
If a large segment of the population (you can call us conservatives, right wing, bigots or fascist, we are over it) sees that things they love start getting cancelled, they are going to retaliate, and here we are now, banning math books on Florida.
Like I said, belonging to an oppressed minority is one of the most powerful tools nowadays. If those of us that aren’t part of any see that we are getting shorthanded, we will join the offended game.
Thank you for this, Jamie. I was with you and your solution until I listened to Amy and Maggie’s amazing sensitive and articulate video. I appreciate them and you sharing this first hand reaction – it made an impression on me, and will influence my reading list. My purpose in posting is to praise them and you for the lesson, and to encourage you to take it further, and no matter how impractical, find a way to interupt distribution, open every box, and remove and replace the offensive material. You do not want to create a collector’s item with these chatacters under your company’s good name.
Philip: I hear you, and it is not a matter of cost; it’s a matter of what I can reasonably and ethically incur about the people who would take upon such a monumental task of opening every pallet, removing every carton, opening every carton, opening every copy of the expansion, sorting through the find these specific cards (which are not grouped together sequentially, individually inserting the replacement cards), then reshrinkwrapping each product (25,000 units), placing them back in the cartons, and placing them back in the pallets. I cannot ask my fellow human beings to undergo such labor; I can, however, ask people who buy the expansion to tear up the conquistador cards and instead use the replacement cards we’re providing with every copy. I sincerely hope that no one keeps them. They are not a collector’s item.
At five minutes per unit, it is about one man year in labor. Maybe reprint the decks and/or wrap the new or corrected decks in paper bands. Is there no alternative to shrink wrap? It will be costly. Organize a few assembly lines of your champions to process some of the units around the world, maybe at the big game conventions. Take a year to accomplish the correction. A video montage of this work would be a great legacy.
@Philip, it was an honest mistake, what Jamey is doing is more than enough and more than what most other companies would do. What you’re proposing is completely unrealistic.
For those that do care (I’d hope most people ..) maybe they will get joy out of ripping up the cards!!
How did you calculate it would be 5 minutes per unit?
5 minutes is only the time it would take for a person to fix a game when they have the box in front of them….but you are missing the economies of scale.
Where do you store the 25000 copies? How do you extract/return a game from the pallet/carton? Where do you put all the wasted plastic? And the plastic that will be used to reshrink things again? etc etc
And this assumes that you are shipping all of the games to a place where all champions are present and then you send them back along the distribution chain.
All this for …what benefit? Saving the customer the task of ripping away 2 cards?
Maggie and Amy, thank you for sharing your story involving your history, culture and experience with this new expansion. I can’t begin to fathom the hurt this would have caused you.
Your courage to share is amazing. Before we play this, I will be sure to sit down with my two boys and watch your video so they too can learn this very important lesson in life.
Mistakes are not easy to accept. Jamey I think you have done the right thing in spite of the error that was originally made. Onward and upward, but never loosing sight of lessons learnt and forgetting the experiences of others affected.
Jamey, I think you’re great and people knows you just made a mistake, it was not intentional. The best part of all of this is you addressed the issue, took responsibility and corrected your error.
It is important to be well informed when treating sensible themes in other countries. With your permission I’m going to translate this article into spanish to post it in my board games blog. I’m Venezuelan too.
I appreciate that, and while I agree that it was not our attention to cause harm or memorialize these conquistadors, my inability to see that we needed to remove them is the end result. While I appreciate the opportunity to fix the problem, I wish I had recognized the extent of it up front and did much more than to include the disclaimer.
You’re welcome to translate and share this article so others can learn from my mistake.
I just saw the video, I still think to take both of them out was a good decision, but she talk about the Inkas and aztecs as mere victims of spaniard “conquistadores” when in reality they were bloody empires that dominated and bullied smaller nations, Aztecs, or Mexicas, were a bloodthirsty culture which practiced massive amounts of human sacrifices, and they asked mandatory tributes of kids and adults alike to perform dozens of ritual sacrifices a year, so I wouldn’t shed a tear for them.
I guess she just kept the government propaganda against the europeans, because when you read history beyond school texts, you note spaniards were massively supported by smaller native nations because they saw them as liberators at first, the opportunity to get rid of their “bullies”.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
This comment right here.
I am honestly surprised at the deep level in which the “Leyenda Negra” has managed to brainwash an entire generation, perpetrating its lies.
I dunno that this is as big of a mistake as it seems to be on the surface. I’m actually glad when games don’t shy away from the scars of history. I’d never have known about the influence of these conquistadors on South American winemaking if it hadn’t come up here. Things like this make me want to learn more about what’s happened to help me better understand.
To give you other examples, let me start with New Bedford. It tackles the topic of whaling by casting you as the manager of a whaling company. Mechanically, as the game progresses, the seas become empty, serving as a reminder of what happens when we over-consume. The game teaches a great lesson without preaching and still manages to be a good resource management game. This War Of Mine puts you at the ground level as a citizen in the difficult position of deciding who lives and dies (namely, you or the other guy) in a war-torn country. It’s more heavy handed in its delivery, but well worth experiencing all the same.
There are also a number of video games that have brought to light (at least to me) tough subjects like Poland’s treatment during WWII (Warsaw), cancer (That Dragon Cancer), and even United Fruit’s poor treatment of local populations (Tropico series; long story on that one).
And I am fully aware that the point of Viticulture is to be a lighthearted game about making wine and that should definitely be its focus. Also, it’s your game, and you’re free to make it how you please. However, I don’t consider it a mistake to include things like this in games, especially when placed in their proper context as you tried to do.
All this to say, don’t beat yourself up too much over it.
I don’t think the concern was entirely over including the conquistadores. It was in asking the players to partner with them for benefits, which is very different
Matt: Indeed, that’s exactly right.
I understood that and it doesn’t really change my point. I think including other possible choices for partnering in South America is the right move, too. My point was to say that I didn’t think it worth Jamey kicking himself so much.
I would agree with Sam. There are so many things to be offended over in this lifetime and in world history in general we could go quite insane over any perceived misdeed (or, in this case, a legitimate evil), and it may be a decent introduction for people into history for them to learn that removal turns into pure iconoclasm for its own sake. Are we not supposed to play Axis & Allies because its about the death of millions of people, and the main leader of one side was committing genocide? Are you not supposed to enjoy yourself if you are playing as one of the Axis powers? What about people who are allergic to grapes – are they not supposed to like this game? (Yes, I understand that one is about direct actions/consequences of a person’s impact vs a thing you might be born with, but I hope to illustrate some type of point) I think we can just go overboard in being puritanical about removal of anything troublesome in our current day/age. I do respect your decision Jamey about attempting to address this concern, and I don’t think many people would even try to do it either. But to echo above, be careful about kicking yourself about it, otherwise you won’t even try to make an interesting theme around a game ever again, because it might just offend someone.
I can’t speak to your experiences with other games, but our goal with our games is to bring joy to tabletops worldwide, not cause harm. This isn’t about offending someone (though that is a form of harm). This is about really hurting people by asking them to garner the support of a genocidal conquistador. There are lots of levels of misdeeds, and you have to draw the line somewhere, and I know where genocide falls along that line for me (the very, very bad side).
He’s not kicking himself, he just righted a wrong. Good for everyone.
I’m glad you’re treating this as an opportunity to learn, Sam–I’m doing the same. I deeply regret my mistake, though–that’s part of what I’m learning from here.
I’m really proud to work for you, Jamey. You received painful feedback, admitted your mistakes and set to work making immediate changes. I’m so glad Maggie and Amy made the scary and difficult choice to come directly to you. Thanks for telling this story.
Cortez and Pizarro are characters who have indeed some indirect importance in wine making in South America as they ordered every settler to plant grapes to make wine, specially for Eucharist. Beyond the genocide, spreading the Catholic faith was the second fastest way to destroy the original civilizations.
So, in my opinion, a pleasant game about wine making and not a Civ/War game should try to find a different kind of character to represent, specially as none of them were actually born and raised in South America and don’t represent at all the amazing wines produced in the region now.
It’s a shame that even after the red flag raised by the cultural consultant the company decided to take the easier step of adding a little disclaimer and released the game as it had been created, stating that is supposed to be a co-op game honoring different vineCultures, instead of digging a little deeper to search for positive characters to represent South America.
On the other way I have to applaude those two ladies who stood up and told you how they really felt about the game. Youtubers who receive games to preview most of times make pleasant videos showing only the good aspects in order to commend the designer or the publisher and receive more free stuff in exchange to exposition.
Lastly, thank you for trying to correct the mistake. Truth be told I think most South Americans, like me, would agree that discarding those cards before sending the game would be even better, as haters exist in every corner and might use them now to make jokes and be intentionally disrespectful.
I love playing viticulture and other Stonemaier games but I’ll wait for a second print of this expansion in order to get a corrected box.
Leandro: “It’s a shame that even after the red flag raised by the cultural consultant the company decided to take the easier step of adding a little disclaimer and released the game as it had been created”
I can honestly say that “easiness” was not a factor in my decision to add the disclaimer. Rather, I thought that was the right thing to do at the time. I was wrong. While it was never recommended to me to outright remove the conquistadors, I should have come to that conclusion myself. This was a matter of ignorance, not negligence.
There is no second printing of Viticulture World, but the replacement cards will be included with every first-run copy.
Thank you for taking the time to answer to every comment. I do believe this company is one of the few who really cares about the community of gamers and its amazing how you are making yourself available to be present and learn. That’s what makes your company stronger and respected. Kudos on that.
I disagree. You’re coming from a place of educated privilege. The rest of us, who are ignorant, wouldn’t have learned anything without this having happened.
This is really great to hear! You not only acknowledged the issue but also worked with those affected to find a solution. Really inspirational to see.
Great on Maggie and Amy for being open and honest about the issue. I’m excited to watch their full review this afternoon.
I’m truly in awe of Maggie and Amy. In the midst of such pain, they were so open and helpful.
A true leader admits to mistakes and seeks to correct them. I applaud you and your response.
As a leader you have to recognize the partially flagged issue as a potentially huge problem.
How can we know in the future if we’re getting a copy of the 2nd printing with the correct cards? I’d prefer to wait to purchase until then.
Absolutely, I failed immensely in not removing the conquistadors.
There is no second printing, and there may never be. However, every first-printing copy of Viticulture World will come with the replacement cards.
It’s really amazing that you were able to find a solution so quickly to address the issue before the game was officially released. I just watched the great WATCH IT PLAYED video and can’t wait to buy this. Thank you.
But I am curious… this looks like a fantastic expansion that your team put an incredible amount of effort into. Why do you feel that you may never do a second printing if it is successful and if you have fixed the problem? (Speaking also to the value of the expansion with the added additional cards to make the Mamas and Papas reflect more diversity in relationships)
Steven: My hope for any product is that we make multiple printings. However, we made a LOT of first-run copies of Viticulture World, so they’re going to last a long time.
I’m impressed by Maggie’s bravery in that video, and by Stonemaier’s response. I’m happy that we’re all working through this together, now that information spreads so much more easily than it did 500 years ago. This development reminds me of what I saw, living in Charlottesville and Richmond, VA, over the past few years. Some people’s painful legacy just doesn’t deserve a statue in the middle of town, or representation in celebratory, peaceful board game.
Interesting and good that you found a solution. But somehow the cultural consultant that you have used should probably given a bigger red flag. Mybe you must use a cultural consultant that is directly connected to the theme but in a world theme it is very difficult.
While it certainly would have been helpful for anyone throughout the process to recommend that we outright remove the conquistadors, ultimately it was my responsibility–I should have recognized that and removed them myself.
Well done fixing the big mistake! That’s why Stonemaier Games is one of the best board game publisher.