What a day! The last 24+ hours have been a whirlwind of activity at Stonemaier Games, specifically in terms of the preorder for Wingspan Asia and the Nesting Box. Here’s a quick history/recap in case you missed it (including some behind-the-scenes elements):
- Last year I publicly shared the Nesting Box (an organizer box for Wingspan content) one prototype at a time on our website, gathering feedback from Wingspanners along the way. This summer we entered production for the box at the same time as Wingspan Asia, and we put Wingspan Asia inside the Nesting Box. At the time, around 8,000 people had told us that they might be interested in buying the Nesting Box upon release. That’s far from a guarantee that they would actually buy it–it’s easy to enter an email address; it’s a lot harder to spend $100 on a niche product (that’s why conversion rates for these types of prelaunch signups are typically around 10%). We also figured there were people who weren’t yet following along. As a result, we made 10,000 boxes in the first print run.
- I need to emphasize here that people were simply requesting a launch notification. This wasn’t a commitment from them to buy the product, nor was it a guarantee that we would have a first-printing product for them. It was just a commitment to email them when the product listing was live on our webstore. It isn’t even possible for us to hold or reserve specific units–once we list a product on our webstore, anyone can buy it. We can tell you about it in advance (or you can follow along our various announcements), but we can’t prevent someone from buying an in-stock product listed on our webstore in lieu of someone who might buy it (it doesn’t feel right to do it, and it is literally not possible on our e-commerce platform).
- Also, to illustrate how fickle launch notification data is, leading up to launch day, we had more requests for Wingspan Asia than the Nesting Box. Yet the Nesting Box has outsold Wingspan Asia by itself by around 3:1.
- Over the summer, we produced the first printing of the Nesting Box and Wingspan Asia. For Wingspan Asia, we gauged demand from distributors and customers alike. This was a massive investment for us, but we try to avoid accepting your hard-earned money up front for something that you would need to wait months and months to receive (production plus freight shipping is a 5-6 month process). The risk was on us, not our customers. (I’ll return to this point later with an alternative perspective.)
- A few months ago, we started a smaller reprint of the Nesting Box, mainly focused on our localization partners’ needs. This reprint does not have Wingspan Asia inside the box–we had already made enough copies of Wingspan Asia to hopefully satisfy demand for a while, and a number of customers had told us they wanted the Nesting Box but not Wingspan Asia. (This reprint is almost finished with production; I’ll come back to it later.)
- On Tuesday we sent an email to Stonemaier Champions to let them know (a) that the Australia/NZ webstore would open preorders earlier than our other webstores so people there wouldn’t need to wake up in the middle of the night and (b) that preorders for our US, Canada, and Europe webstores would open an hour earlier than the announced time of 10:00 am CT. Anyone can place orders on our webstore (if we list an item, we literally cannot limit who can buy it), but we try to give Champions a little head start.
- After dealing with some technical issues at launch (another reason to launch a little earlier than a public announcement), at 10:00 am Central we sent a notification via Mailchimp to everyone who had indicated interest in Wingspan Asia or the Nesting Box. This email now has a 76% open rate. We had previously sent an email to this list on October 7 while we were revealing Wingspan Asia; that email had an open rate of 86%.
- At 10:15 Central, we sent our general monthly newsletter letting people know the preorder had launched.
- Around 3:30 pm, we sold the last copy of the Nesting Box on the US store. The Australia/NZ store sold out a little later, then Canada later in the evening. Currently there are just over 150 boxes available in Europe. Wingspan Asia remains in stock.
- As of this writing, just over 2300 people have filled out the back-in-stock request form for the Nesting Box on our webstores.
- Starting next week and continuing throughout November, our fulfillment partners in the US, Canada, Australia, and Europe are shipping the Nesting Box and Wingspan Asia to preorder customers.
This brings us to where the “great debate” began on our website, Facebook, BGG, Discord, Instagram, and YouTube: Why couldn’t everyone who wanted a Nesting Box get one in the first printing?
You can see from the data above that we technically made even more Nesting Boxes than indicated demand, and we weren’t that far off based on the back-in-stock requests. Plus, Wingspan Asia is still available, and we’re already making more Nesting Boxes–we don’t create artificial limits. If something sells out and there’s demand for more, we’ll make more. We can always make more, but we can’t undo the manufacturing of something we’ve overprinted.
However, my job is to provide the best experience to every customer, and I know for sure that there were quite a few frustrated and disappointed customers yesterday. I heard from dozens of them by email and dozens of others on social media. I’m truly crushed that we couldn’t provide a magical experience for everyone in the first printing.
Naturally, this raised the question: Why didn’t we just let people pay us in advance for the Nesting Box before we started making it? This was a very public, webstore-only product with a fairly certain timeframe. Why not at least give people the option to pay in advance so we can make and reserve a copy for each of them, and we could have made extras for anyone who prefers to wait for the real preorder to pay when the product arrives at our fulfillment centers.
After processing this feedback over the last 24+ hours, I think those questions are completely valid. As much as I try to serve customers through our current method–we take on the risk and uncertainty on behalf of our customers–this method clearly didn’t serve everyone as well as I’d hoped. Why not give people the choice?
In the immediate future, we’re in the process setting up a “printing order” for the Nesting Box reprint, and we’ll inform everyone who made a back-in-stock request when it launches. As noted above, we’re already nearing production on the reprint of a few thousand boxes, so our fulfillment centers should receive them in early 2023. They won’t include Wingspan Asia, so they will have a lower price; they’ll be prepackaged for shipping durability, so they’ll ship by themselves. So if you want Wingspan Asia while it’s on sale and available, I’d still recommend getting it now (or from your preferred retailer in December).
In the more distant future, whenever we create a new Wingspan expansion (Africa, Antarctica, and Latin America still remain, in no particular order), we may prepackage the expansion inside a new printing of the Nesting Box and offer it in advance using this hybrid printing order & preorder method.
The differentiating factors are (a) that these are public products (most of our products remain a secret until production is complete) and (b) that they’re webstore-only products (most of our games, expansions, and accessories are primarily sold through distribution/retail, and we reveal costs, prices, and SKUs to retailers only when the products are officially announced and ready to sell).
This means that there may be a time in the future where we provide bare-bones information about a deluxe, webstore-only version of a new game–basically the information you’d find on the front and back of a box–and offer this hybrid option to people. Basically, if you’re comfortable making a purchase now based on limited information, feel free to do so, and we’ll make a copy for you. Otherwise, the full details of the game will be revealed in mid-20?? when it arrives at our fulfillment center and will be available for preorder (at which point you can choose between the deluxe version and the retail version).
All of this would be on our webstore, so Champions would get their 20% discount and people can track everything they’ve ordered all in one place.
Challenges:
- One challenge I haven’t quite figured out is when to stop the printing order. The obvious answer is when we start printing, but that relegates everyone–even those who want to pay up front–to waiting for the preorder when the game arrives. At the same time, if we leave the printing order open, it cuts deeper and deeper into the games we set aside for preorder customers.
- There are other challenges that arise, the same you’ll see on any crowdfunding campaign when you accept money many months in advance of shipping: Cancellations, unreported address changes, harassment, etc. But I’m willing to test this to see if those issues aren’t as bad as they are with crowdfunding.
- Add-ons are a challenge with this method, specifically new add-ons. For example, we often make new Rolling Realms promos for new games. Some preorder customers are likely to want them, and it’s fine if they add them to a preorder. But those promos are also on our webstore for anyone to buy, so what if someone else buys an in-stock product and adds a promo that won’t be ready for 4 months?
- This method creates confusion at our fulfillment centers, as they will have a growing list of orders that they can’t fulfill until a later date.
- No matter what method we use, if a product is in demand, it is likely that at some point–maybe in a day, maybe a week, maybe a month, etc–we will sell out of it. That’s why we have a back-in-stock form. That’s why we’ll always make more if there’s demand.
I’m not entirely certain we’ll do any of this, but we are very seriously considering it (and perhaps at the very least testing it with the Nesting Box reprint already in production). I’d love to hear your thoughts on this solution. My goal is to serve you better, so if the above method is a way to do that, I’m committed to exploring it.
***
Also read: Why We Started Teasing Wingspan Asia Now
If you gain value from the 100 articles Jamey publishes on this blog each year, please consider championing this content! You can also listen to posts like this in the audio version of the blog.
256 Comments on “The Great Nesting Box Debate”
Leave a Comment
If you ask a question about a specific card or ability, please type the exact text in your comment to help facilitate a speedy and precise answer.
Your comment may take a few minutes to publish. Antagonistic, rude, or degrading comments will be removed. Thank you.
[…] only once in recent memory have we asked customers to invest their money in a reprint up front (the third printing of the Wingspan Nesting Box). The reason was that the Nesting Box is an entire order by itself, while something like the […]
I’m trying to figure out why you made LFGS unable to ship the nesting box? Why is it in store pick up only by publisher’s request? My closest one is an hour and a half away (if traffic is good) inside a major city centre.
We didn’t. We can’t control what retailers do with the games they buy from us or distributors.
You may want to contact 401 games and board game bliss in Toronto then, because they both specify that on publisher’s request they cannot ship it, and cannot bundle it with another shipment.
We only sell Nesting Boxes to local retailers, not online retailers, so no online retailers should even have the Nesting Box. If you want a Nesting Box shipped to you, you can order it from the Stonemaier Games Canada webstore.
The stores I mentioned are physical local stores that also ship games to you. They both state that they cannot ship it due to publisher request. So there’s a misunderstanding around it somewhere if you haven’t put a restriction on the stores. It’s more than one saying it though.
Those stores are available to sell the box to local customers; if you want the Nesting Box shipped to you, you can buy it from our webstore.
Sooooo…my initial question was correct then? You don’t allow local stores to ship, only pick up on your request, which was what my question initially was since I would have to drive into town or can get it shipped only direct from Stonemaier even though I don’t deal with online retailers. Ok. Thanks for the clarification.
No, we don’t allow online stores to buy the Nesting Box. My guess is that the stores you mentioned also have brick-and-mortar locations, so they told their distributor that they wanted to carry the Nesting Box at their storefronts, and their distributor may have agreed to let them do so on the condition that they not act like an online store and ship the Nesting Box. I definitely did not tell retailers that they’re not allowed to ship the Nesting Box, but I definitely did tell distributors that the Nesting Box is not available to online retailers.
If you’re asking a retailer to ship to you, you’re definitely dealing with an online retailer. As for our webstore, Stonemaier Games is a publisher, not a retailer.
[…] quick context (described in detail in The Great Nesting Box Debate and later in It Isn’t Too Late), over the last 5 years, our method of launching new products […]
I’m guessing that a fair number of Stonemaier Champions, like myself, also back a substantial number of Kickstarter projects & so would have no problem paying in advance for a product to make sure we got it.
I don’t understand the anger over this issue. I missed out on the Nesting Box first print, but that’s because I missed my Champion email, and that’s on me. I was disappointed, but not angry.
I would happily pre-purchase items I’m interested in, as I routinely do via Kickstarter. So if you want to try that method, I’m on board.
Thanks as always for being so transparent and communicating so well, Jamey. I can’t think of another company that does that as well as Stonemaier.
Thank you, Andrew! I appreciate the opportunity to share the facts behind these situations and the thoughts behind them.
Hi Jamie
I am a long time supporter of your company and your games figure strongly in my top 10 (holding places 1, 2, 5 and 8). I personally own every game you have created.
Due to a couple of circumstances I missed out on the nesting box but I understand totally that it is not an exact science working out how many of something to print and people can be changeable. (speaking as an ex retail and hospitality business owner).
I think the anger directed at you and your company is totally unwarranted. At the end of the day you did everything you could to avoid people missing out – and let’s face it, they aren’t missing out, just getting it later than they wanted.
I ordered Wingspan Asia and it arrived promptly to my door and I have signed up for a nesting box when it becomes available. At the end of the day it is a fancy cardboard box and noone dies for the delay of one of those :)
I would certainly take up the option of a definite preorder system with an up front deposit where the final cost is unknown at the start of the project.
Keep on doing what you are doing so we can keep on playing great games.
Ciao !
Christine
Thank you, Christine. I appreciate your flexibility about the Nesting Box, and I hope we can fully satisfy demand with the third printing. I can understand frustration and confusion, but it is hard to take the anger and vitriol, especially when I’m in the business of bringing joy to people. :)
you’ve certainly brought lots of joy and enjoyment to me and my circle of friends so mission accomplished :)
Christine
Hi Jamey,
Sorry people have been nasty about the Nesting Box process, that’s never helpful.
I’m glad that you have recognized the need for providing an opportunity for those who have expressed interest in the product prior to general release, and that you are actively evaluating options, I think that will help make future releases go smoother and be more satisfying for everyone.
I was one of the people who signed up for the release notification and was not able to purchase the nesting box with the Asia expansion, which left me frustrated and disappointed (I still ordered the expansion on its own). I saw that I had received an email announcement when I woke up on release day but did not have time to place an order before work. When I was able to access the webstore to purchase it at lunch, it had sold out (I’m on the west coast, so this was around 1:15-1:30pm CST).
There are 2 things I would like to see for a future release like this. First, the ability to pre-purchase the product; whether this takes the form of a pre-production order, as you discussed in the blog, or an opportunity to pre-purchase a day or so ahead of the public release (perhaps with a limited quantity to ensure that there is still product for the general release), or both.
The second thing I’d like to see in the future is advanced notice of what the price will be. For myself (and many others, I’m sure), no matter how much I want a product, the price will determine whether I can afford it (at the moment, especially); having the ability to evaluate whether the product is worth the cost to me – at that time – is an important part of a purchase, especially a large one like the nesting box or other large game (personally, above $15-20 is typically where I start to more carefully consider the value/price balance). Providing the price point – in this case, the price points of nesting box with expansion, expansion alone, and (ideally) future printings of the nesting box alone – would allow me to do that consideration prior to the release and be able to make that decision without feeling a time-pressure to do so when I know that the product will sell out fairly quickly.
I hope you’ll consider providing more information, like pricing, to those who are interested in a product so that we can make the best decision for us, as well as an opportunity to purchase a product before release to the general public for those who have expressed particular interest in a game.
Thanks!
Dan
Thanks Dan! This is great feedback. We are definitely going to experiment with the idea of an ongoing preorder (starting before production begins, or soon after enough that we can make more units on the fly). That should address your second request too, as we can’t sell something to you without you knowing the price. :)
There is a specific reason I haven’t announced the precise price in advance, and I think it’s still relevant: It really can change until the last minute, and often to your benefit. A lot of factors influence the price, and if I say it too early, it locks me into that price (technically it doesn’t, but socially it does). Also, as soon as we announce the price, retailers will start to list and sell the product with very limited other information, which is not customer friendly. Last, there are often different prices for the product: There’s the MSRP, the preorder price, and the Champion price. If I say $50, people may lock onto that but not remember which price it is.
As a compromise, what I’ve done more recently is given an approximate range. Someone probably doesn’t need to know that the preorder price is exactly $54, but if I say it’s around the price of My Little Scythe, that gives them a reasonable cost range to consider for their budget. Does that seem reasonable to you?
Here’s a more in-depth article on the subject: https://stonemaiergames.com/price-secrecy-flexibility-and-patience/
The ongoing preorder would certainly solve both of my requests, definitely.
And a rough estimate of the price is plenty. Even a moderately broad range is likely enough, as $40-60 is a very different price point than $75-100 from a planning perspective. It allows me to think about what price I’m willing to pay, without having to guess semi-blindly at what the price point might be.
Thanks!
Thanks Dan! I completely agree, and I’ll do better at that in the future, adding that range to the product page in advance.
Hi Jamie
Your update/reflections were thoughtful and clearly sincere. As others have commented, it is a shame there has been such a nasty response from some people. It reminds me that we live in stressed times with a myriad triggers points that make life’s path a tricky one to tread. Good on you for all you do and the grace with which you respond.
Cheers
Gary
Thanks Gary! I think most of the time it’s just passion that manifest in ways that are varying degrees of constructive. :)
I am sorry you have received negative feedback from people who missed out on the first printing of the Nesting Box. I think that Stonemaier Games modelled excellent transparency and commitment to customer service throughout the Nesting Box development and launch process. You also provided everyone who receives your newsletters with multiple opportunities to sign up for the launch announcement. (I think I tried to sign up for it more than once because I had forgotten I was already on the list!)
As a Stonemaier Champion, I very much appreciated the day-before heads up. I think it is appropriate that people who have contributed money to support Stonemaier’s work in advance be afforded this advanced notification of purchase opportunities. This being said, if I had missed out on the first printing of the Nesting Box, I would have been disappointed, but not angry. Your contract with Stonemaier Champions is very clear with regards to what my support does and does not entitle me to.
Re: the advanced notice for people who signed up for launch notification: Would it be possible to provide these people with more than a 15 minute heads up in the future? I realize we didn’t make any commitment to purchase anything by signing up for the notification. But since there wasn’t any opportunity to make an early purchase commitment, the launch list was the only method we had for registering an intention to purchase. Fifteen minutes isn’t much advanced warning for a popular product such as anything Wingspan.
If you did offer a pre-launch purchase option, I would use it for products such as new Wingspan expansions which I know I’m definitely going to buy (unless something drastically bad happens to my finances). It could even help me out a little bit in terms of enabling me to purchase the product in a month when I knew I had the cash for it instead of having to set aside a guessed-at amount of money for a future purchase several months down the road.
Re: unreported address changes: If you took pre-orders, could you send a “Heads up! Your product is about to ship. Please re-confirm your mailing address.” email prior to shipping? (There was a significant period in my life when my address was not very stable, and I would have appreciated such a notice.)
Ultimately, however, my bottom line on this issue is this: Stonemaier sells games. You sell excellent games which I enjoy quite a lot. When a new game I’m interested in or new expansion for an old game I love comes out, I’m excited to get that product into my hands. But if I cannot get it right away, the delay isn’t going to have a negative impact on my health or the health of anyone around me. Receiving a new Stonemaier product makes me happy, but it isn’t a necessity of life. So long as your company continues to produce quality products and to operate with integrity, I’m going to continue to purchase the products, regardless of how long I have to wait to receive them.
Laura: Thank you so much for your detailed comment–I really appreciate it. I’d like to dig a little deeper into the 15 minutes, as I think you’re onto something here, but there are a few key details:
–It’s always going to be public information for anyone paying attention when the launch day will be (and I had mentioned that day to launch notification subscribers a few weeks in advance), and it’s always going to be at around the same time. So even though there was only 15 minutes between that email and the general email, even without communication, anyone following along knows that it’s roughly that window anyway.
–15 minutes was just the difference in communication–it’s not like there was a just 15-minute window to order the product. :)
That said, I think an email a few days before could be a big help for those who are anticipating the launch day but may have “set it and forgot it” months before. Also, I think the addition of the hybrid preorder method will help. It’s entirely possible that there won’t even be a launch day, just at some point the start of the preorder and later the full reveal of information. So there won’t even be a need to subscribe for a launch notification–as soon as we announce the product, it’ll be available to preorder, and it’s just up to you to decide when you have enough information to make that choice. If we do that, I’d probably just recommend that people subscribe to our monthly newsletter if they want a notification for the full reveal (though I understand that some people might want a one-time newsletter specifically for that purpose–what do you think?).
You also touch upon a concern of mine for which we’ll need a solution: Address updates. We’re working on a way to enable customers to edit their addresses in Shopify without our involvement (we would just provide the instructions rather than manually updating a bunch of addresses). I like your idea of providing some advance notice for address changes. I’ll add that to my checklist now so I don’t forget to add it later!
Thank you!
“That said, I think an email a few days before could be a big help for those who are anticipating the launch day but may have “set it and forgot it” months before.”
Exactly. There were a lot of emails about the Nesting Box over the past year. I did know generally when to expect the launch, but did not remember the exact day. Stonemaier communications tend to drop in my in-box mid-day for me in the middle of the week, and they’re not generally urgent. So I often let them sit until the evening or even the weekend when I have more time to read them. Being reminded of this launch the day before definitely helped me out in this regard.
“Also, I think the addition of the hybrid preorder method will help.”
Agreed. If people had multiple weeks in which to order a product and be assured of getting one in the first print run, the general newsletter would likely be sufficient notification.
Perfect! Thanks Laura!
I would absolutely preorder items in future with only bare bones details. (In fact, I’d love to just be on automatic preorder for all new games and expansions if it were a possibility.) Thanks for how open you’re being about the process and factors to consider. Will support whatever the outcome is.
Thank you so much, Kate!
It would have been nice if those of us who pay extra for for Champion status had first rights to the printing. I knew it would sell out immediately, but I somehow didn’t see the email until later that afternoon. It was already too late. I really hope I can get the box in the next printing. I am holding off purchasing The Asia expansion until then.
Todd: Anyone can place orders on our webstore (if we list an item, we literally cannot limit who can buy it), but we try to give Champions a little head start.
I’m not sure it makes sense to hold off on buying Wingspan Asia, as the Nesting Box will be prepackaged–you will not be able to combine it with any other products (and it won’t include Wingspan Asia). By the time it arrives, we could easily be sold out of Wingspan Asia.
Anyone that is disappointed, it’s understandable, we love wingspan and love the idea of a nesting box…. But you can still can get the asia expansion now, and the nesting box in the future. Just accept it, there’s nothing else you can do anyways and you’ll feel better.
I’ll be frank here, very disappointing to see the Nesting Box listed as £65.00 after previously charging £99 only 19 days ago.
£65 is cheaper than even using Champion to bring the £99 down to £79.20.
This is a solid indication that I shouldn’t support you, because within WEEKS it’ll be what, nearly half the price? Shocking and disappointing.
That is an incorrect comparison. The $99 Nesting Box included Wingspan Asia inside (a $45 product). Reprints of the Nesting Box do not include Wingspan Asia.
In all fairness, it was very clearly communicated that the Asia expansion was included in the first printing of the Nesting Box. Jamey himself communicated this through various forms of media. He also made clear that further printings would not include the expansion. The pricing is very similar between the Nesting Box w/ the expansion versus Borge products separately. If the scenario described was true, your frustration would be understandable. But it simply is unfair to make such a statement without first confirming information. I missed out on the first order (very difficult day), but Jamey and company were very prompt in responding to my questions and were very helpful. They have remained above board, as usual, through all of this.
It’s a bummer that you’re receiving so much negative feedback over this. Stonemaier Games has done a great job at informing Wingspanners about the launch of the Nesting Box pre-order. I think the fact that it sold out so fast adds to the excitement of the purchase. If you were able to purchase one last week, you feel like you got something special and rare. But, I know it definitely stinks to be in the group who was not able to purchase from the first print, especially if you had your name on the launch notification list. I wouldn’t stress about it too much though… no matter what you do, someone will always be unhappy. You’ve gone above and beyond what most publishers would do.
I appreciate that, Chrissa. I can relate to those who missed out on the first printing, and my hope is that people will support the type of publisher who will make more of any product.
We asked to be notified and never received notification. Now the link to renotification is gone. I guess that’s ok as I am losing faith in anyone actually notifying me. Disappointed for sure. Loyalty is earned.
I agree! I can say with 100% certainty that we contacted all email addresses provided to us. I’m happy to personally check your email address if you send it to me at jamey@stonemaiergames.com to see if it was on the correct list and spelled correctly.
I totally agree with Chrissa! I think that Jamey and team has done a great job trying to serve their customers with what sounds like a challenging logistical process. I also appreciate the ability for this team to look at their processes and being willing to pivot to serve people customers better.
Hi Jamie,
I’d have a look at GMT’s model for their P500 games.
https://www.gmtgames.com/s-2-p500.aspx
It stretches way ahead of any production, but the concept is really good. They need at least X amount of orders to make this game/do a reprint. And those pre-orders get a certain discount. Then once they have started shipping, they turn the discount off and the remaining inventory is up for order.
Thanks David! I’m familiar with the P500 system. It addresses a different need than what we’re running into with the Nesting Box, but it’s an interesting system. I wrote about it in detail here: https://stonemaiergames.com/my-thoughts-on-the-p500-program/
I like the idea of giving customers the option of preordering, especially if there’s a deadline for preorders. I think that’s the best way to keep it clear and fair that this will be the period for preordering, everyone else will need to wait until they’re in stock. I also think that it’s important to communicate a general timeline on when production and fulfillment is expected to happen, as it can help manage the expectations. You can count me in for future preorders of any Wingspan (or Viticulture!) items.
Gaby: I absolutely agree about the timeline–that’s why we use a progress chart for most of our products (games and expansions): https://stonemaiergames.com/e-newsletter/
[…] the midst of last week’s discussion about the Wingspan Nesting Box, I had a chat with a few publisher friends about various topics, including the whole idea between […]
Great post, Jamey. I am super happy for the success of this project, Wingspan, and the Stonemaier brand. You produce amazing boardgames, which I absolutely love. I am however just slightly annoyed that I didn’t get the nesting box :-) as Wingspan (and Viticulture) are my spouse and my personal favorite boardgames, and I was very much looking forward to this. I am not one to suffer from fomo so I didn’t rush to place the order, but when I did, due to technical issues I was locked out of the SM store. Big thanks to Joe who was incredibly helpful to get my account back up and running. Please do consider offering the the next run of the nesting box to the SM Champions before making it available to the general public. Keep up the great work and your amazing games!
Thanks for your comment, Rene! Unfortunately, as I’ve noted, it is impossible for us to make a product available to only one group of people–when a product is on our webstore, anyone who sees it can order it. The second printing of the Nesting Box (the one we started making a few months ago) will be mentioned first to anyone who has signed up for a back in stock notification on our webstore, so I would highly suggest you sign up for such a notification. :)
I remember you were able to open the store a day or hours earlier for Champions before, was that the first printing of Tapestry or the Scythe combined rule book; really can’t remember which product? But I do remember you were able to do it before because I got that notification and did buy the product during the “champions only” timeframe. Or was it you announced champion first the opening of the store/pre-order?
It’s just that we announce it to Champions first–the products are technically listed on the webstore at the same time for everyone.
For some reason, Stonemeier emails are not going to my inbox, so I didn’t see the pre-order email at lunch, and when I got home after school the US store had already sold out! I ordered Asia from Canada a couple of days ago. I am still interested in the Nest Box, so I hope you will reprint. I would pre-order. I am going to check my gmail settings because my Canada order email also didn’t go the inbox. It’s in All Mail. Good grief!
I’m sorry about the emails, Sarah. We do already have one small reprint in the works (we started it a few months ago), and if/when the preorder for it sells out, we’ll start another. Please make sure to sign up for a back-in-stock notification on our webstore!
When I visited the booth at Gencon, that box was a beacon. Being able to store everything neatly in one box is what this game needs. My poor box cannot handle anymore as both expansions melded together now. the leftover bits are nesting in the last expansion box.
I too filled out the survey, missed the email (promotion/spam folder), and sitting sad faced as I missed out. Not the end of the world; it is what it is. Going forward, I still plan on getting the expansion, the game is a hit in my household and with family coming into town over the holidays, its a must have no matter what.
My concern is how I go about eventually nabbing the 2nd or future release of the box. Buying both the expansion and box a la carte will be a shipping premium that could be forced on the customer. I generally try to group game orders to take advantage of free shipping or one shipping charge. Hopefully the box is released and the cost of a la carte is mitigatable, but in the end you have a business to run. Paying a few extra dollars to have it now or wait for the future expansion bundle. Or will the nesting box art change with each expansion? Oh boy, now I am adding fuel to the fire.
There is so many shoulda, woulda, coulda’s here. I understand whole heartedly both your (Company) and our (Customer’s) positions on this. I look forward to the exciting ways the franchise grows.
Edward: I think I can address your concerns about future printings of the Nesting Box (none of which will include Wingspan Asia inside the box, as we have an abundance of Wingspan Asia available–many more copies than the first printing of the Nesting Box). All printings of the Nesting Box will be prepackaged for durability and must ship to customers on its own, so no other items can be combined with those orders to save on shipping costs.
The second printing is the one that started production a few months ago and is almost ready to freight ship from the factory to fulfillment centers. There almost definitely are not enough units in that print run to cover the demand indicated by back-in-stock requests (those are the people we’ll contact first when we open the preorder, hopefully this week). I estimate that reprint will ship to customers in early 2023. We’re waiting on the freight shipping cost, as that has a huge impact on the price we choose for the box–if we price it too low (especially factoring the discount that Champions get), we’ll literally lose money per box, which isn’t something we can do.
The third printing is the biggest experiment, as it’s the one for which we’ll planning to accept preorders before we even start production. It’s completely open in this way–anyone who preorders will get it (around 6 months after the preorder). We’ll price it the same as the second printing and hope that freight shipping costs don’t increase 4 months later when production is complete.
Last, as I mentioned in the article and as you said, there is a possibility that when we make the next expansion (most likely in 2024), we will find a way to package copies of it inside a reprint of the Nesting Box as well. This is not a guarantee, just an idea. We’ll see what happens between now and then.
Can you address this concern as well, as I have the same one:
“… My concern is how I go about eventually nabbing the 2nd or future release of the box. Buying both the expansion and box a la carte will be a shipping premium that could be forced on the customer. I generally try to group game orders to take advantage of free shipping or one shipping charge. Hopefully the box is released and the cost of a la carte is mitigatable…”
Thank you Jamey!
Ryan: That’s the concern my entire comment above was addressing. :)
In the case of the nesting box specifically, you can’t bundle it with other items because it ships as a single pre-packaged unit. Ordering it with other products means additional processing and a higher cost than having it as two separate orders.
I too appreciate your commitment to customer service. In the end though, please remember that there is no actual way to please everyone and that in the end the most valuable thing about your company culture is that you make a legitimate effort to accommodate all your customers. I appreciate your company’s inclusivity, transparency, and commitment to excellence. I personally would not have cared if I had not been able to buy the nesting box in the first print run. My focus is the game itself. As long as I could get a copy of that I’m a happy camper.
I’m currently on the waiting list for a Viticulture Wine Crate while simultaneously enjoying Viticulture World and trying to beat the darn thing on easy. It’s a challenge that has given my husband and me hours of frustrated entertainment and brain wracking fun. I’m not lamenting the wait for the wine crate, I’m enjoying the game. One can only hope that playing Wingspan Asia will console those that were not able to get the nesting box and replace the frustration with enjoyment of the game. Thanks for all you do.
Nora: Thank you for that note and the reminder that while I can try my best to provide a good experience for everyone, it probably isn’t possible to actually please everyone. I really can’t express how grateful I am for your patience (for the Wine Crate, which is almost finished production) and that you’ve trusted that we’ll make more of it.
It must be frustrating to gather so much info and data and still have people get very upset. We all love wingspan… and I know you love wingspan and it’s players too. Just know that I find it amazing that you listen, ask and do your best to make expansions and products for this game based on what this community asks for and so enjoys. It means a lot. A delay in production is a small bump in the road compared to the immense joy, love and fun you have brought into all of our lives. 💓
Danette: Thanks for your comment. I value data, but in the end it’s the customer experience that matters. For every 5 people who are delighted that they’ve already received a tracking notification for their Nesting Box, there’s a person who is disappointed they didn’t get the chance to order a first-run copy, and that’s my fault. I appreciate what you said, though, and I’m very grateful for the opportunity to continue to try to bring joy to you and others in the future.
Thank you for all the in depth information.
I have a question about wether the nesting box is going to be translated or if there will only be the english version.
Will it be up to the different publishers?
Maximilian: The Nesting Box is language independent, so it won’t be translated.
Great article and interesting to see some of the working behind the scenes. We signed up both at the interested in the Nesting Box and again for the pre-order notification. Based in Australia I got the email for the launch time and appreciated the early opening. I tried to log on early to check my login and saw it for sale 40mins before scheduled launch and we got a copy so from our point of view it worked as you described. Thanks for all the work and love the game even though we only got the original this year followed by the expansions!
I’m keen to hear which charity/charities will be receiving the donations based on the notify email signups.
Ed: We made the donations a little over a week ago; this information is noted on the Wingspan Asia page: “For every preorder launch notification request we received for Wingspan Asia, Stonemaier Games donated $1 to charitable organizations that benefit birds in Asia. We split the donation total of $13,130 equally among BirdLife International, Animals Asia, Flight, and the International Crane Foundation.”
I’m glad to hear the method worked for you! :)
I was barely able to snag a nesting box after the notification email went to my “promotions” box and didn’t give me a notification. It really sounds like you’re genuinely trying to accommodate your fans/customers, and I appreciate all the hard work to make so many people happy. Thanks again for all the amazing games and fun times.
I very much appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt, Stephen, and I’m sorry your email went to the promotions folder. I’m sure that happened to quite a few people, and that’s another reason for me to do a better job of having more than enough copies for everyone during at least the first week of the preorder.
Out of curiosity and because you seem to have so much data, do you know how many people who signed up for notification, I.E the 8000, did not follow through with a purchase either because they missed it or changed their mind?
Tara: That’s a great question! I have the emails of those who signed up for a launch notification by date (8000 before production began, more afterwards) on Mailchimp, and I have the emails on Shopify of those who actually bought the Nesting Box…I suppose I could combine the two lists and look at the number of duplicates. That would be helpful, but it wouldn’t be the full picture, as it doesn’t account for everyone who signed up but *couldn’t* preorder despite wanting to (the back-in-stock requests would help fill out that picture a little bit).
The data mentioned in the article that’s somewhat relevant is the number of people who signed up for a launch notification and at least opened the email (76%). That’s at least a baseline indicating that around 6000 of those people were curious enough to click through and see the price within the first 24 hours.
Jamey, I think the 76% statistic is a bit skewed as it takes into account everyone who looked at the email within 24 hours. The product, according to the post above, sold out within 5.5 hours of sending. Those who looked at the email after the 5.5 hours are irrelevant.
I was one of the individuals who was unable to preorder due to not seeing the email within the 5.5 hour window. I didn’t open the window until about 6PM EST (well within 24hrs), therefore missing the preorder.
Although I appreciate your transparency, it still stings a bit knowing that, I’ll be paying more (nesting box + Asia expansion) for a product that 10k individuals will be receiving sooner than I; all due to not seeing an email within 5.5 hours. I don’t mean to “beat a dead horse”, as you clearly are sympathetic to those who missed out. I do appreciate the steps your proposing above as I certainly will opt prepay in the future. Maybe also consider limiting orders to 1 per individual as opposed to 1 per order? Additionally, maybe send preorder notifications to champions/notification lists a day in advance of public notifications (as opposed to 1 hour). I know anyone can still purchase in that time, but I would certainly think this would help at least a little.
Thanks again, and here’s to hoping I can get in on that second print!
That’s fair, Zach, though I looked at the number on Wednesday afternoon, and it was around 72% at the time. Not a big difference there. :)
“Maybe also consider limiting orders to 1 per individual as opposed to 1 per order?”
Our webstore settings can limit quantities by order, but not by customer.
“Additionally, maybe send preorder notifications to champions/notification lists a day in advance of public notifications”
As noted in the timeline in the article above, Champions were notified on Tuesday afternoon. We’ve found that those on the launch notification lists get annoyed if we send them notifications before the product has actually launched (that’s why I sent them an email on October 7 to let them know that the reveal had launched, and in that email I told them that the launch would happen on November 2 at around 9:30 am Central; I then sent them an email on November 2 when the preorder had launched.
“it still stings a bit knowing that, I’ll be paying more (nesting box + Asia expansion) for a product that 10k individuals”
I haven’t announced the price yet, but I’ve heard a few people say this, and while we’ll keep the price as low as possible without us losing money, I see the other perspective too: If someone just paid $99 for a Nesting Box plus Wingspan Asia, would they not be annoyed to see just a few days later if we sold the Nesting Box and Wingspan Asia (separately) for a sum of less than $99? Because that’s what we would need to do for the total (after shipping) to add up to less than the amount originally paid for the combo.
Thanks Jamey, I certainly appreciate the quick response. This is one of the many reasons Stonemaier is levels above the competition! Although you can’t get everything perfect, it’s clearly evident that you do try.
I do appreciate you giving a peak at the behind the scenes statistics. I missed the bit about Champions being notified early. I did sign up to be a Champion on Wednesday while purchasing Asia, so it’s good to know I can expect a heads up email in advance of future releases. I also, can certainly understand not wanting to offer at a lower price than those who were able to get in on the first preorder.
“I haven’t announced the price yet, but I’ve heard a few people say this, and while we’ll keep the price as low as possible without us losing money, I see the other perspective too: If someone just paid $99 for a Nesting Box plus Wingspan Asia, would they not be annoyed to see just a few days later if we sold the Nesting Box and Wingspan Asia (separately) for a sum of less than $99? Because that’s what we would need to do for the total (after shipping) to add up to less than the amount originally paid for the combo.”
I strongly disagree with this, I would *not* be annoyed as it would equal our in the shipping cost as you mention, and I would have had it 6-months longer. Plus, before/during the Holidays instead of afterwards.
The solution of course is to offer pre-orders and make a larger print run for such a high demand product/game – sadly it’s too late for these options. The other option is to offer not only a first print run of the empty nesting box but also a *true* second printing of the nesting box that includes the expansion for $99+shipping.
For anyone who would be hypothetically annoyed – I’d gladly take their order and annoyance off their hands! I also bet 2300+ others would as well.
Ryan: I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I understand that there are other factors involved, including the timeframe. There’s also the unstated factor that those who buy Wingspan Asia get the Wingspan Asia box, which has a cost and a value of its own (it’s definitely something that some people value, as I’ve heard from many people that they wish they could have gotten the Wingspan Asia box inside the Nesting Box).
I think this is more about respecting customers than it is about avoiding an annoyance. If you paid us $20 today for a product and we offered that same product tomorrow for $15, you’re saying you wouldn’t feel disrespected or even just a little annoyed?
“The other option is to offer not only a first print run of the empty nesting box but also a *true* second printing of the nesting box that includes the expansion for $99+shipping.”
As I’ve said many times, we have an abundance of Wingspan Asia. It makes no sense to print more of the expansion when we already have more than enough to last quite a while. Plus, Wingspan Asia inherently has no connection to the Nesting Box other than the *first* print run of each product happened to align. The Nesting Box is a separate product from expansions, and I’m sorry if the combination of the two for the first printing provided a false association.
Jamey, first and foremost – like Wingspan, you’re awesome! I know this is am unfortunate scenario that a pre-order system/option might have helped with but the webstore didn’t support.
One last clarification on your inquiry of “I think this is more about respecting customers than it is about avoiding an annoyance. If you paid us $20 today for a product and we offered that same product tomorrow for $15, you’re saying you wouldn’t feel disrespected or even just a little annoyed?”
I would be annoyed *if* I paid $20 for an item I got in a week, and then the same product was offered for $15 if I waited 2-weeks instead. However, if I had the product for 6+ months, that’s well worth the premium!
We’ll see if this bears out in the prices of the Nestingbox bundle on the secondhand marker over the next 6-months… having flashback of when Wingspan launched and scarcity caused it to sell for $100-$200 even though people *knew* it was being reprinted.
Plus, almost anything I buy is cheaper after 6-months (if not less) unless, of course, demand outweighs supply. If you announced a cheaper nesting box tomorrow, I’m sure the ones sold last week would still hold there value if not get a Holiday bump (Tickle Me Elmo style, dating myself there!) because FOMO exists, even if it’s only for 6-months, and *especially* if that 6-months include the winter Holiday season!
TL;DR: No, I wouldn’t feel disrespected or a little annoyed. What makes me feel that way is seeing it selling on secondhand markets for a premium over the next 6-months which I fear will happen. Fingers crossed it doesn’t/won’t though! :)
Ryan: I genuinely appreciate that attitude. It isn’t something I’ve encountered often, as many times over the years when someone has had one of our products for months and they see the same product offered on sale elsewhere (from us or a vendor), they’ve contacted me to let them know they’re annoyed that they paid more (it is not typical for someone to factor in the value of actually having the product).
I also agree that I really hope we don’t see price gouging on ebay and elsewhere, considering that we are already making more boxes and will gladly continue to make more in a timely manner.
Thanks Jamey. As a Champion who responded to the survey and signed up for email notifications quite awhile ago, I can’t say I wasn’t disappointed to have missed out. But you and your staff are class acts and you make great games that I enjoy for years, so it’s good to know I’ll have more opportunities in the future.
I would be more than happy to take it off you hands. Somehow I missed it.
I was one of the people that emailed you and I can say that you are one of the most responsive and transparent people I have dealt with in the industry. That is rare and appreciated greatly.
My perspective…
I first found out about the Nesting box at gen con by pure happenstance. It was being shown to someone when I happened to be at the Meeplesource booth. I immediately signed up for the email notification as Wingspan is my family’s current favorite game.. it doesn’t hurt that my sister is a birder :).
I did not follow the hype so I’m in no groups and was completely unaware of demand etc. I have not bought games from Stonemaier before so had no idea how things worked in terms of product sales. I am probably way more living under a rock than most.
At 4:30 I get home from work and am finally able to check my personal email and see that I got the email the Nesting Box launched. I immediately click the link and find it sold out. My frustration and disappointment stems from the fact I never even had a chance to try to get one because I was at work the entire time from email to sold out and couldn’t check my personal email.
I checked my email and don’t see that I recieved any prior emails advising of the launch date and time.
It is what it is though at this point and I will re-evaluate in the future.
Thank you again.
I appreciate you sharing your perspective, Joanne. It’s always helpful to know where/how people discover our products (and your comment is a good reminder to me that many people don’t know our methods, including the method of making a product before we sell it). I hear your frustration and disappointment, and I hope the solution I mention in this post will help in the future. In the immediate future, I’m hoping that customers will support the idea that we’re the type of company that makes more of anything that people want rather than create artificial scarcity.
It looks like you subscribed to the launch notification email on October 27. At that point, we only had one more notification to send: The one when the product is available to preorder. The only other notification to that mailing list was on October 7 to let people know that we were in the process of revealing Wingspan Asia and that “The preorder for Wingspan Asia and the Nesting Box will be available to everyone in early November. Because you signed up for a launch notification, you’ll get an email at launch (probably around 9:30 am Central on November 2).” In the future, I’ll add that information to the launch notification signup form so it’s there for anyone to see even if they sign up just a few days before the preorder.
Funny how my memory thinks it was “immediately” just based on how excited I was by the Nesting Box. I am sure what really happened is Gen Con was too chaotic (one of my friends was likely to leave me behind if I took too long at a booth) so I ended up looking it up later and found I could sign up then.
It would definitely be nice to know when exactly a launch is happening ahead of time to at least get a chance. I apparently missed getting that earlier email so that explains my cluelessness.
Also, while I appreciate that as long as there is demand you will reprint, there are still issues. Volatile shipping costs and supply chain issues can make a product have a different price even over a short time frame. Sometimes timing makes a difference too in the ability to buy things.
I only really want the Nesting Box so I’m just waiting and seeing and I hope I’ll get a chance to grab one.
Like other posters said…disappointed, but getting over it and awaiting the reprint :)
Thanks!
Thanks Joanne! I honestly don’t know when exactly we’ll open the preorder for the small reprint we already have in production, but if we get our ducks in a row, I’m hoping it will be sometime this week. We’ll send out a notification to those who have requested a back-in-stock notification on our webstore. It is likely that we will not have enough for everyone in that reprint, and we will then prepare the next level (a reprint that has not yet started production, allowing us to make to order).
Jamey – thanks for the explanation and for your continued transparency in this and other issues. I can understand the “dance” of gauging interest and producing the “correct” amount of product.
I agree with other comments that offering customers the ability to pre-pay to ensure access and to allow you to plan appropriately. Using past experience, i’m sure you can get pretty close to estimating total demand – and produce that many so that non-pre-orders would still have an opportunity to order after the release.
I too have been frustrated by missing pre-order dates, games being out of stock/out of print (there are a couple wargame companies that are notorious for limited print runs and years between re-prints). However, this is no different than any other consumer-facing industry (automobiles, sneakers, clothing). It’s inherent in any demand based business.
So, I appreciate your efforts to get this right, to listen to feedback and to continue transparent communication and dialogue.
And at the end of the day, as blasphemous as this sounds (especially from someone who has retired in order to have more game time), we are talking about board games here. I’ll bet we all have plenty of other games to play while we wait for re-prints.
Don: Thanks for your note, and you’re right that we’re constantly gathering more data from previous preorders to inform future demand. My post makes it sound like I was only using the launch notification results, but I was also looking at previous preorders and our knowledge of people who are willing to spend $100 on an organizer box. Hopefully this data can help us in the future too!
Look I do get it and appreciate the insight and reflection you always give on things like these. Still it’s hard to not feel a little cheated as a long term customer. With the popularity of wingspan timed with the holiday it feels like there was a lack of proper foresight in this. That may be unfair and I acknowledge that but looking at it as a consumer we are constantly hit with FOMO strategies and it gets tiring and feels like it isn’t respecting me as a customer. Being told I’m out of luck of ever being able to get a bundle again at a fair cost but hey just buy the expansion adds salt to the wound and feels like there’s a lack of empathy not respecting my disappointment. That message I’ve seen rings hollow and reinforces more apathy to me which is frustrating. As a consumer there are tons of companies that deliberately short their stock to create buzz and FOMO for long term attention. It comes off as an underhanded tactic after being a consumer for so long. While I’m not saying that’s what you did here, it doesn’t take a way that for me at least that’s how it feels. You can blame a larger market that has created those strategies making customers feel jaded.
I’m not saying all of this to make accusations, but to give you insight on how this makes me feel as a long-standing customer. I think a preorder system that guarantees me my bundle instead of these day of gamble type launches sends a message that you want to make sure I have a chance to continue that relationship with you and you want to minimize me missing out. An advanced preorder system respects my investment in you. I know I would have preordered months ago had I the opportunity. With how all this played out, instead I have gone from being a guaranteed sale to not spending a dime on this expansion because I feel cheated.
I have always respected your journals over the years and you do an incredible job of being so reflective. I share insight to give you the same respect so you can continue to find success in building your business. I want to be clear…you haven’t lost me as a customer (other than this expansion). The pros have outweighed the cons over the long term, but I hope you consider my words from one customer as you build long term faith with me and others.
Ps-I do thank you for writing a reflection on this. While I am frustrated, the reason I have been a long term customer has been because of how you intentionally engage with the community. I know how things “feel” doesn’t mean it is how things “are”. I’ll get over some of the short term sour grapes but hope some of my thoughts yield long term things to consider with your future releases. I continue to wish you the best.
Matt: Thank you for sharing this, and the part that stands out the most to me is that you’re feeling a lack of empathy. I’m sorry I haven’t conveyed that as clearly as possible, as I truly feel an immense amount of empathy for those who missed out on the first printing of the Nesting Box with Wingspan Asia. We made so many copies of Wingspan Asia that it really doesn’t make sense for us to make more right now, but I promise you that we’re seeking a price for the Nesting Box by itself that is respectful and empathetic to customers who will now buy Wingspan Asia separately (from us or from a retailer).
Jamey,
As always thank you for always engaging with your community. Your transparent approach and continuous engagement with consumers is what makes you an industry leader in this space. My feedback is meant as a good faith effort to do the same as you continue to evolve your business. I run a fairly large enterprise as well and am constantly having to battle the perception our operations have on our customers making sure it doesn’t work against our brand/goals. As I’m sure you’re aware, a customer’s perception is their reality, and I know it’s a huge challenge looking at every corner of your operation to make sure nothing that is creating a false impression of your operations. As a longstanding customer, I feel you have been successful doing this. I think it’s a smart strategy that you have a public engagement approach like this that helps eliminate those misperceptions.
Thank you again for taking the time to respond. I truly hope Wingspan Asia surpasses your sales expectations and that you will have many more successful projects in the future!
Thanks for your comment and the well wishes, Matt. I 100% agree that a person’s perception is their reality, and I’m glad to have this platform to at least share the facts so people can decide if they want their perception to be impacted by those facts.
Isn’t this the moment when a campaign similar to a kickstarter would make sense? And I emphasize – “similar”.
Personally, I did not participate in discussions on FB, because I am not English-speaking, so I am waiting for the nesting box to appear without any additional surprises inside :)
For the reasons mentioned in the post and my post about why we haven’t returned to Kickstarter, I don’t think it makes sense.
I’ve pre ordered stonemaier products on other websites. I also still back a small number of Kickstarter projects every year. So, I’m one who doesn’t mind paying in advance to secure my order.
In stock vs pre order. I’ve seen other sites that have a warning along the lines of “your order contains pre order items. Please note that it will not ship until all items are available. If you wish to have some items sooner, please make a separate order for in stock items”
I’ve also added in stock items to a pre order before to take advantage of shipping discounts. Generally, I might add “related” items (especially accessories like sleeves) so the wait makes sense.
That’s helpful to know, Vicki, and I like the wording of that style of description.
I’ve been on the notification launch list forever and received no emails at all..?? I checked my spam list and everything. I only knew about it from religiously checking the site every few weeks. I was surprised to see emails went out in early October.
Jessica: Unfortunately, I don’t see you on the launch notification list (I looked up your email on Mailchimp). There does appear to be a glitch related to us syncing Shopify with Mailchimp that also resulted in you not receiving our general enewsletter; I can’t manually override it, but if you sign up again for the newsletter, it should fix the problem and you’ll be subscribed in the future. https://stonemaiergames.com/e-newsletter/
Thank you so much!
Running a company in this industry sounds exhausting lol.
I agree. So many people get so upset so easily. I can’t believe how patient and responsive Jamey is to all the criticisms.
In contrast, it’s been nice to see so many comments (on this thread) of people being understanding.
I didn’t see this addressed, but my guess is that the attractive price point is what tipped the scales. You had hinted/teased it would be under $200 (correct me if I’m wrong), and then it listed for $99, and people see a huge bargain! Personally, I wasn’t that interested in the nesting box, but even at $99 I gave it a second thought (didn’t buy).
Hard to predict final price with much advance notice, I know….
Looking for to getting Asia!
I hoped to offer a reasonable price…it’s such an expensive product as it is, and I wish the landed costs were lower so we could offer a better price. You’re right that I recommended that people budget $200 and then be surprised when it was a lot less. We don’t announce the real price even to Champions until the day before the preorder, as it can change up until the last minute.
Thank you for your explanation. I’m just so sad because I wanted it for my granddaughters for Christmas.
I feel for you, Barbara, and it’s kind of you to think of your granddaughters. Do you think they would be happy to get a copy of Wingspan Asia instead?
Thank you for this detailed explanation! I would love to see people who signed up for advance notice to be able to have first dibs on purchase. Give people 24-48 hours to lock it in and if they don’t, too bad, so sad. I myself had a copy of the Nesting Box in my cart ready to purchase as soon as my wife got home and gave me the green light on the price, but by the time that happened around 4:30p it was too late 😭 Was hoping it would at least be safe in my cart for a few hours.
Thanks Rick! As noted in the post, if we put a product on our website, it is not possible for us to limit to any particular type of customer–when it’s live, it’s live for everyone. Also, I think there could be quite a heated debate as to whether Stonemaier Champions or preorder launch notification request folks deserve to get first dibs. :)
What we can do is (a) order more of hotly anticipated products so they don’t sell out in 6 hours and (b) offer people the opportunity to preorder without any limitations before printing actually begins (that wouldn’t be the primary way to order, just an option for those who want it).
Thanks for the super quick reply! Totally understandable! I’m a huge fan of Stonemaier games and can’t wait to order the Nesting Box when it’s reprinted 🙂
❤️
I apologize if this has been started already, but to be clear, after the second printing sells out, third (or later) printings are anticipated to continue to be the empty box only? (bundled neither with Asia nor whatever the next expansion is).
MY: That’s correct, all reprints of the Nesting Box will not have Wingspan Asia inside (we printed Wingspan Asia in abundance, so it will be readily available on its own for a while). The one exception may happen in 2024 when we’re likely to have the next expansion–if people want it, we could package that expansion in the Nesting Box for its initial print run.
Your “buy when available” logic makes lots of sense to me. I understand you wanting to experiment with other methods to reduce frustration. Just keep in mind that new options may take a lot of time and only reduce frustration to a small fraction of customers.
Thanks MK! I’m glad we could serve many customers this week, though I’d like to be able to serve everyone who wants a first-printing copy, so I think testing some sort of hybrid method and seeing how it goes could be worth it. We’ll see! :)
“Cancellations, unreported address changes, harassment, etc.”
That right there is the main reason you should stay away from taking orders in advance. Save your sanity.
My sanity definitely has improved since moving away from crowdfunding. :)
Hi Jamey really sad to discover today that having been a Champion for a while now, that has had several orders fulfilled to me in Guernsey, in Europe, that this would no longer be happening. Really so disappointing, I don’t mind waiting for a second printing and I’ve already ordered everything for Wingspan previously so it really came as a shock to discover that I will no longer be able to order anything direct from you again. It was suggested that I could arrange to have it delivered elsewhere and then shipped on but, if I used the UK, that would mean me paying an additional 20% VAT and then shipping onward fees as well. Not that good for the environment shipping the box twice. I continue to be thrilled for you and Elizabeth and wish you every success in the future but this change leaves me with a very heavy heart.
Neil: I think there may be some confusion. We have the same fulfillment center in the UK that we’ve used for years now. For any webstore purchase in Europe, VAT legally must be included in the listed price, as we do now and have done so for quite some time.
Perhaps I’m missing something: Why, exactly, can you not order from us? I looked up your email on our Europe store and don’t see any purchases there. Maybe you’re on the wrong webstore? https://europe.stonemaiergames.com/
If you’re having trouble placing an order on that webstore, just let us know and we’ll figure it out. I’m true very confused by this comment! :)
Hi Jamey, thank you for getting back to me so quickly. I have followed the link that you gave me, which is the same one in the Champion email earlier this week and it still won’t allow me to buy it. It says, “This order can’t be shipped to the address you entered. Review your address to ensure that all fields have been entered correctly and try again.”
When this happened this morning I sent a screenshot to contact@stonemaiergames.com and during a series of emails I was advised that, “…I didn’t see that your order is shipping to Guernsey. We don’t currently ship to that location.” I was very confused by that comment, as you were by mine.
A number of other things that may help clear things up a little; Guernsey is not listed in the drop down menu for shipping and the reason I mention VAT is because Guernsey is not a part of the UK and as a result we do not have to pay VAT. Not all countries in Europe have to pay VAT.
I’m really not sure why my email isn’t listed on the Europe store but I have ordered The Red Rising Special Edition, and several other products including Wingspan products and your April Fool’s promotion previously as well. Perhaps they were shipped from the US hub, I’m afraid I can’t recall at the moment.
I hope that helps as I would like continue to order goods directly from your company, including the Nesting Box, as I am keen to continue to support it moving forward as I have done in the past.
Thanks for clarifying, Neil. Your email does show up on the US store, just not the Europe store (which we opened around a year ago). I’ll look into this–it seems odd that we can’t ship to Guernsey.
Hi Jamey, I really appreciate you taking the time to look into this for me, thank you.
Hi Neil: The problem is solved! We can’t exactly figure it out, but we think there may have been issues shipping to Guernsey earlier in the pandemic. We’re not aware of those issues now, so you can place an order and it should go through. :)
Hi Jamey, brilliant news, thank you. Order placed and confirmed. Wonderful to know that I will be able to continue to order directly from the source. All the best, Neil.
Personally, I am tired of the “buy-now and wait” system we’ve come to expect in this hobby.
I love Stonemaier’s policy of having the items on hand prior to releasing in the store – it reduces my fears around actually getting the item I purchased.
I appreciate that you are looking to make it better for the people who were unable to obtain a copy, but it is unrealistic for us, as consumers, to expect you to know something beyond the data available to you.
I’m excited you sold out – what an accomplishment and testament to your company! Thank you for continuing to create projects worth bringing to the table.
I can definitely relate to that, Abagail–it’s exactly what we’ve tried to do differently (and will continue to do differently). Hopefully our experiment with adding an option for those who like the buy-now-and-wait method will work, but if it doesn’t, we’ll stick to our current strategy of sell-what-we-have-and-make-more-when-needed. :)
As always, great communication, explanation, and understanding. You know you will never please anyone, but you continue to try to do so. Thank you.
Love your games and I know everything is still difficult with printing/shipping. Nevertheless disappointed, had been excited about this since I first heard about it and checking the website/email every few days recently, but still too slow.
Will be holding off buying any expansions (right now just have base + Oceania) until it’s released, since its already difficult juggling the two boxes I have.
Personally I’d rather just give you my money now even if it doesn’t come for a year, especially after this experience (now I feel even MORE pressure to constantly check the website, email is apparently too slow).
Thanks for that input, Kevin! I’m happy to try that method to see how it works out.
My understanding is that for the French version, Matagot is handling it and will only be available from their website, in limited quantities, and not distributed via the normal supply chain to Canada. So for a french-canadian, I feel left out. I will probably never be able to get one. I’m so disappointed.
The Nesting Box is language independent, and the reprint doesn’t have Wingspan Asia inside. We ship from Calgary to Canadians. You’re not left out. :)
If you’re talking about the French Wingspan Asia, that is indeed a Matagot product, and I’m sure Matagot will sell it into distribution in Canada.
You mean that the nesting box (not the Asia expansion) as no writing anywhere? If that’s the case, then you’ve made my month. Thank you so much!
The only writing is on the birdfeeder punchboard (which disappears after you assemble the birdfeeder) and on the separator tiles (which are color coded and have a unique bird on each of them–the text of Europe, Oceania, Asia, etc isn’t necessary for their utility).
Oh, english on the separators are not that big a deal. Thank you so much for this clarification Jamey.
Given how quickly the wine crate sold out I was expecting this to sell out quickly too regardless of how carefully planned the release would be. I was lucky because I was at a conference all day and during a quick break later in the day remembered to preorder. I was honestly worried that it wouldn’t be available when I went to look for it to time and it seems my fears were well-founded.
I always appreciate the transparency and the effort going into everything SM does and I think that disappointment sometimes gets exaggerated into controversy more than it needs to. I would have been disappointed and upset but not outraged… this is a common issue.
Many have pointed out the broad appeal of Wingspan and I imagine that’s part of it but I think that the fact the Wine Crate sold out for a slightly less popular game shows that there is probably another element here. I wonder how reliable the number of notifications is as a way of estimating the number of customers. It is only by following you closely on the blog and live cast that I realized that these sign-ups are such a big part of your business process and I wonder how many people think “I don’t need another email, I’ll just check in close to release and try to buy one” or initially think they aren’t interested and then become interested later on but do not go back and sign up for notifications. I wonder what other forms of engagement might be measurable and able to supplement the notifications. Estimating above demand but not by too much sounds so hard so if there’s any other factor that can help with that I imagine it would be worth looking into.
I also appreciate you rethinking your preorder strategy for products like this. For boxes, inserts, mats, accessories, and quality of life products, I can’t imagine a review changing my mind. Usually these are considered for purchase for practical reasons so I’m not sure that the common pitfalls of hype would be present here either. Nor is the long gap between preorder and delivery as big of a deal in this instance. I look forward to seeing how well this process works out if you choose to follow through with it.
Thank you for your thoughts and insights, Jev! I think you’re right on many accounts.
I guess I am in the disappointed but will get over it camp.
I was really looking forward to placating my pet peace about not being able to fit a game and expansions into one box. But I am not the kind of person who can schedule my day around being online for a specific time so I can order something.
Hopefully future printings calm down and don’t turn into people buying multiple copies just to resell.
Thanks for being clear about what happened.
JP: Thanks for hanging in there with us as we make more Nesting Boxes to satisfy demand. We’ll know a lot more after we sell the limited units of the reprint that’s already in progress–I think it’s likely they’ll sell out quickly and that we’ll then open a preorder for a new printing, but we’ll see.
Jamey, my only comment would be the same drum I beat with every communication to Stonemaier. I would have loved to order your Nesting Box, and still will buy it if I have an opportunity.
However, there was then no mechanism to purchase it for shipping to South Africa. Believe me, I reached out to many retailers in my country, and they all could not assist. When it went live, I checked with great hope through your US, Canadian, European and Australian distributors. If any one of them had offered me an opportunity to but I would have done so on a heartbeat.
I could have bought and sent via a freight forwarder, but that would have tripled (or more) the cost, to the point that it would have been my only gaming purchase for the next 6 months or more.
When you reprint, please consider that your loyal fans in countries you have decided not to ship to would also would also love to buy these special products.
My suggestion would to be open to work with someone in, eg South Africa willing to coordinate a group order and shipping, either an individual or a retailer. We have a coordinating facility among gamers in my country where I or anyone else wanting to buy or market something like the Nesting Box could put that together.
I feel for you, Patricia. I want more than anything to be able to ship to South Africa (and South America, for that matter). The problem is that when we’ve shipped to those areas in the past, fewer than half of the packages actually arrive (and many of them are sent back with a bill for the return shipping cost).
I’m glad you looked into freight address providers, as that’s what I typically recommend. Did you try Shipito?
If someone in South Africa wants to incur the responsibility and risk of arranging a group order, I’m open to trying it. But given that we already know the likelihood the delivery won’t happen, the risk would be on the buyer in this situation, which I don’t think most people would want to try.
If you’ve had consistent success shipping in a specific way from the US (specific shipping company or courier), let me know!
Thank you Jamey, I will contact Stonemaier when more details about a reprint of the Nesting Box are released using the email address I’m using to post here.
In the meantime I’ll put out feelers via our group orders coordinating facility and see how many people bite.
In terms of your comment, about reliable shipping options Generally I have found various international courier companies offer quite reliable international and local shipping. I have never experienced package loss with either, although our postal system definitely leaves something to be desired in many instances.
Our local gaming community has also organized coordination for the shipping of kickstarter purchases as well, and the retailers who arrange these may be open to the idea. So there is definitely a way if the will is there.
Thanks for sharing this. I’m open to coordinating with a retailer who takes responsibility for the shipment from the US. I’m glad you’ve had good experience with couriers. We’ve tried with USPS and FedEx (and maybe UPS, but I’m not 100% sure), and none have resulted in consistent deliveries.
Great transparency, Jamey. I always appreciate and enjoy the content you publish. While the Nesting Box perked my interest, it was unlikely I was going to purchase one at first launch. So no complaints here!
I wonder if the total sales of Wingspan, including the expansions, should have been considered in determining your initial print run? Your number of 10,000 makes sense and you would know best based on your production experience, but Wingspan seems like a generational game for Stonemaier and I’m guessing there are many Wingspan fanatics who aren’t regular visitors on your website.
Regardless, congrats on the success even though it’s a little tumultuous for some at the moment.
Thank you, Derek. You’re right that perhaps the sheer number of copies of Wingspan sold would justify a higher printing than early launch notification requests indicated. While I’m sure there are many Wingspan fanatics who aren’t regular visitors or subscribers, I think I question how they would even know about the Nesting Box.
I have to say, as a working professional, I was stunned by how I never got a chance to order the nesting box. I saw the email, I wanted to read it and I wanted to act on it. But, I was tied up in meetings all day that day. By the time I was able to order it, it was already sold out. I honestly had no idea I needed to stop what I was doing and order right that damn second. Once I tried to order, I have to say, I honestly thought you had a technical difficulty and thought I’d check back later. Once I realized something must be up, I starting hunting to figure out why I couldn’t order it. I finally came across this post and figured out that it was sold out. I felt like the kid who wasn’t picked to be part of the group. I have three solutions to offer you.
I don’t think you considered another solution to your problem. Give anyone who ask to be notified a window of time to order the nesting box before everyone else. I would suggest giving priority to those who asked to be notified a week to order, your champions a week to order and then open to the public. It’s clear from how fast this sold out that you greatly underestimated the popularity of your Wingspan products.
For a lot of pre-orders out there, a non-refundable deposit is an option. I can imagine how you might feel about that. But, I would gladly pay that for any of your items that are currently not in stock. I’ve bought nearly everything that I can from your company. Some items stay sold out or I’m not quick enough to get it before it sells out again. I can’t just watch you guys every week, busy life here. But, if I had a way to guarantee I wouldn’t miss out when a new product rolled around, I’d gladly pay the pre-order deposit. I want all your products, I really do. But, I also don’t want to feel like I will never have a chance at getting the good things, like a nesting box.
I might be an unusual customer, but I would gladly subscribe to a program where I’m guaranteed to get all your new releases of everything, I do mean everything! Give you my details, have my credit card on file, send me any and all new products. I really don’t want to miss out on items like this. But, here I am, missing out because I have a busy life.
Thanks for these ideas! I’ll go over them one by one.
“Give anyone who ask to be notified a window of time to order the nesting box before everyone else.”
It is not possible for us to list products that only some people can buy and not others, both logistically (our webstore can’t do that) and ethically (that’s called gatekeeping). Even if we only tell some people in advance, word will get out quickly.
“For a lot of pre-orders out there, a non-refundable deposit is an option.”
If you’re talking about a partial deposit, we considered that, and it leads to unforeseen complications, particularly: If you give us $10 for the right to buy the game later, we still have no way of actually ensuring you get to buy the game (see my point above about not having control over who does or doesn’t place orders on our webstore), and if you don’t get it before someone else does, then you’re really upset because you put down money in advance (opposed to just signing up for a list). Hence why the only way that works for an advance guaranteed payment is if it’s made in full before printing begins.
“I might be an unusual customer, but I would gladly subscribe to a program where I’m guaranteed to get all your new releases of everything, I do mean everything!”
That was actually the original idea for the Champion program. :) We moved away from that idea again because of the logistics involved–it gets quite complicated on the back end, and while there probably are customers who literally want everything, sometimes it’s even tough to determine what “everything” is. Like, do you want 1 rubber playmat or 2 or 5? And what if you want to add things to the order (Shopify requires manual editing for orders).
I appreciate you being solution-focused in the face of disappointment, and I hope we can serve you by making more Nesting Boxes and by experimenting with the hybrid approach in the future.
It’s not gatekeeping if everyone is open to sign up for the pre-order and then everyone who freely signed up for the pre-order is guaranteed a chance to purchase.
Tara: That’s true, but that’s not the gatekeeping portion. Gatekeeping is when you say to someone, “You can’t do X thing (that you would otherwise be able to do) because you haven’t done Y.” That is not in line with our inclusive principles.
I wish it were possible to offer such a guarantee, but describe to me how that’s actually possible. As I mentioned in the post, around 8,000 people had signed up for the Nesting Box before production began. The typical rate of signups converting to actual sales is around 10%, but I assumed in this case it would be higher–that would have only been 800 people. We made 10,000 units. After we started production, we continued to let people sign up for a launch notification, but at that point, how could we guarantee anything if demand exceeded the print run? It takes months to print something like this–we can’t just add on 5,000 extra units a few weeks before the preorder. Also, if we’re holding a bunch of boxes for people who said they *might* want it, that prevents others from buying them–we’re holding something that we may not even sell. That doesn’t seem fair either.
That’s why I think the only solution that can work is the hybrid solution I mentioned above: Before we start printing, if you want the product, you can pay for it then. A sale is a true guarantee (on both sides), not an email address on a launch notification form. And then we can still make plenty of extra units for those who want to wait until the full reveal and the actual launch.
Jamey,
When I mentioned paying a non-refundable deposit, or even paying for the entire thing in advance; it’s not much different than a video game announcement. I know the video game is coming, I’ve paid whatever it is I need to pay and I’m guaranteed to get that thing whenever it comes. My family does this pretty regularly with GameStop. We pay the balance when the game comes in, our copy is at the store and ready for us to pick up. I know you mentioned you don’t want to do that. And while logistics on the backend may be hard, if they aren’t impossible, it is something you should consider. I’ve heard and said in my business, just because something is hard isn’t enough reason not to do it. Especially, when it serves our customers well.
I know you are still a small business. So, some logistics you cannot overcome. As your business continues to grow, please continue to consider that your products are considered high value and even collectible to some of your customers. Your customers are willing to pay a deposit for a guarantee for something later. Especially, rare items like this nesting box.
Also, your nesting boxes are already showing up on eBay. Let that one sink in.
Thanks!
Thanks Wendy! As I mentioned, the deposit method isn’t possible for us (unless there’s a Shopify app I’m not aware of–I’ll look into it), but for collectible, webstore-only products, we are exploring the possibility of letting customers preorder the product before production begins.
“Also, your nesting boxes are already showing up on eBay.”
This is what I was afraid of, and this is what is annoying/upsetting to me, and if sounds like other consumers. On the bright side, the seller’s listing (which is listed at $250+shipping!) did post their limited edition number so maybe their SM account can be flagged?
This is feeling very similar to what happened with Wingspan’s first printing, and is now happening again sadly, and within the same game line no less… hopefully this thread can help minimize/prevent it happening for a third time.
All we can hope for now is it (and any in the future like it) remaining unsold. This does support why future printings/combos/etc. should cost the same, if not less, with shipping costs as to dissuade this kind of behavior. Obviously there’s a premium in having a limited product, even if only for 6-months.
Still, if anyone can min/max the situation to find the best strategy, it’s going to be a thread full of gamers right? :)
Hopefully no one will actually buy it for that much! We have no idea which customer received which box number.
I know I have no intention of buying it from eBay. While I would love love love to have a nesting box, I have no desire to support someone who is messing up the system for everyone else.
While I definitely was one of the disappointed customers, I appreciate this post. Thank you.
I genuinely appreciate Stonemaier games not relying on FOMO-based marketing and models that require you to pay months in advance. This approach has enabled me to make good buying decisions, and as a result I have never regretted a Stonemaier purchase. I don’t have any better ideas than what you listed in this post (which is unsurprising given the level of careful thought and attention put in to decisions made at Stonemaier), but I do greatly appreciate that the pre-pay option will still be *optional*. I can definitely envision some scenarios where I would still be willing to pre-pay with limited info (and I think the nesting box would definitely have been one of those scenarios for me personally), but most of the time I am perfectly happy to take my chances on a pre-order that might sell out and result in me having to wait a little longer.
Thank you for the thoughtful post, and the ample communication sent out before, during, and after the launch.
Thanks Kari! I’m glad you emphasized the optional nature of paying in advance. If we do it, it’ll just be an option–the primary method will still be the preorder launch after we have the product in stock.
I think offering users a pre-order option for something they know they’re going to buy is a good thing. For me, I knew I was going to buy Wingspan Asia because I love Wingspan, and the Nesting Box was a given. It helps that you revealed it very publicly in prototype, and everything you said about it in public made me know it was a product I knew I wanted/needed. Maybe it makes sense to do this for niche products (Scythe’s metal mechs come to mind).
As for pre-ordering well in advance, a major buttress of this industry is built on Kickstarter and pre-ordering for something you might not get for years often well after the estimated delivery date. It is a comfort to have put the money out front and to not have to think about it again. If I had the opportunity to order the Nesting Box months ago and guarantee my spot, there’s something to be said for the peace of mind I am purchasing as well, knowing I will get a product I want the way that I want it and not having to worry about selling out.
(I’ll also add that based on timing I was one of the last people to scoop up a Nesting Box from the US store, and it was a stressful stretch watching the sale number tick up and knowing my time was limited before I could place the order.)
Limited quantities like this remind me of concert tickets, an expensive one-time purchase you’ll make sometimes a year or more in advance. They can be more than you want to spend in the moment, but once it’s done the ease of “ah I don’t have to worry about it and I get to experience this thing I like” really does balm the psyche etc.
Thanks for your perspective, Matt! It’s good to know the hybrid solution might appeal to you, and I look forward to testing it.
Thanks for answering the one question I had. I can understand production limits, and while I’m sad I missed getting a Nesting Box, I can wait particularly now that I know I can pre-order the expansion and get the box itself (without the expansion included) later when you make more.
Hey there Jamey,
Have you looked into GMT’s P500 system? While not totally applicable, it could help you navigate the questions and concerns you have with the printing order system.
I have! Here’s my article about it: https://stonemaiergames.com/my-thoughts-on-the-p500-program/
While I commented on YouTube that I was disappointed I missed out, I had meant it as a reflection on my forgetfulness, not on how the launch was run. Between the emails and videos posted I should’ve noticed it had launched and ordered earlier in the day. I feel like Stonemaier Games, and Jamey gave me every notification possible that it had gone live. I just missed it.
While I am disappointed I missed out on the nesting box; I was happy to learn I will still be able to get the nesting box in early 2023 and I did order the Asia expansion. I’m still very excited to play that.
As far as the debate of whether to do some prepay orders vs continuing to only do preorders once the items are in the warehouse, I agree there’s no easy answer. I don’t think you will be able to please everyone either way. Maybe to cut down on the harassment and refunds only open the prepay system to the champions. I also agree with the commenter that mentioned adding print numbers to future runs as well that way people don’t feel as left out.
Whatever you decide, I am sorry those of us that missed out made the launch seem unsuccessful in any way. I think it’s awesome this game has such a huge following the orders superseded expectations so much.
Thank you for your continued transparency. I’m still looking forward to my Wingspan Asia and getting my nesting box in 2023!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Marsha. As for the individual numbering, we definitely do that for every print run of special products like these (that’s what we’ve done for the Scythe metal mechs, for example, and we’re doing it for Nesting Box reprints). I’m glad you’re still looking forward to Wingspan Asia (and the box in 2023)! :)
Hey Jamey
As one of the only boardgame publishers / designers / owner of the business, that you can actually easily talk too – I’m pretty sure most would agree you do a stellar job!
My two cents on this ‘situation’ most likely won’t add a whole lot and has possibly already been said (apologies I haven’t read all of the comments on here). But I decided to post a comment just in case.
If the nesting box was a limited one off print that was never to be made again.. then I would totally understand people being upset as fans and collectors if they were unable to purchase it (which is life and happens).
However this is not the case, with another run of the nesting box already announced!
I’m not sure I understand the ‘issue’?
#1 – wingspan is still playable without the nesting box
#2 – you can purchase the Asia expansion and play the game exactly the same way anyone with the nesting box is playing.
#3 – you can get the nesting box at a later date when the next production run is complete (or the one after or in 12 months time even?!)
The only problem is people might have to wait 2-3 months longer than someone else.
Is that really a genuine issue?
I thought you were fairly open with the information. We have 10,000 of these.
Now they’ve sold out.
We are making some more.
They won’t have Wingspan Asia inside, so you may as well buy and enjoy that now – the exact same way you would have bought it if the Nesting Box wasn’t a thing.
End of my two cents.
Keep up the great work, fantastic communication and top notch production.
We appreciate you being a part of our hobby.
100 percent agree with you on this.
Same here.
Scott: I appreciate this summary, and I’m very grateful for customers who see it this way (while I’m still empathetic to those who don’t). :)
One more thing, I think you should do away with the numbered boxes for the first printing, while it generate hype it only increases FOMO and disappointment. I don’t know how much that will hurt the bottom line or how much orders will be generated (if at all) but that should ease the rush and frustration for most.
We can do those for any printing (and we are, especially for a special product like the Nesting Box). So there’s a chance to get low-numbered boxes in every printing.
I think the huge demand for the nesting box was amplified by everyone’s excitement for the Asia expansion. They built on eachother. If you accepted pre-orders months before, there’s no way you would have captured the 2300 that weren’t able to order and asked for an availability notification.
That’s true, the two products were quite symbiotic!
I think the printing order system might work for you, at least for these niche, bigger products. Sure there will be some cancellations, but most customers will not which provides much more certainty that the printing run will be sold. You will also get early funding. But there are risks for you as you will be required to set a (preorder) price earlier in the process. And you will now have to deal with paying customers who are waiting for their product, and who may want (demand!) updates. I don’t think you can satisfy everyone. :)
I really appreciate the transparency about your business considerations and logistics, it’s very insightful!
I do suspect (but don’t have the data!) that you did greatly underestimate the demand for this product. With so many orders in the first six hours, I wonder how many orders you could have received within a few weeks with the hype building up on social media. My guess is that the number of people willing to surf to your website and order the product, is far greater than the number of people who will surf to your website to sign up for a notification list. But again, I don’t have the data to substantiate that feeling.
Geert: That’s a great point about how momentum can build, especially with people receiving the box over the next few weeks. It’s still interesting to me that Europe hasn’t sold out yet, though.
I agree (and am worried) about this: “And you will now have to deal with paying customers who are waiting for their product, and who may want (demand!) updates.” (Updates I can handle…getting people to *read* updates is quite another matter!)
There’s a war on in Europe with energy scarcity (and thus a lot of financial uncertainty), so the European market may not be a good indicator of what to expect globally.
Good conversations!
That’s true, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has had a big impact on the economy (in Europe and beyond). Even going back to the Wine Crate, we seem to see less interest from those in Europe for big boxes.
Maye let the original Champions who had their intent sent the first time, have a first crack at the reprint? I think with the “hype” generated by the Nesting box and Wingspan itself were unexpectedly expected (if that makes sense lol). While I was one of the those who were waiting for this for a year and failed, I’m confident SM will be able to do their best to mitigate if not prevent from this situation happening again.
That’s essentially what we did in this case by giving Champions a head start–it isn’t possible for us to put a product on our webstore that only Champions have access to (once it’s there, anyone can order it, and word travels fast). But perhaps the printing order solution will help with both Champions and non-Champions alike.
I think you’re over thinking it. You and your company have done an amazing job gearing up for this launch with numerous public announcements and transparency. People had plenty of time to sign up for a launch notification, you handled the technical difficulties with humility and diligence. Moral of this post, don’t let the minority affect your decisions for the future. You make great products with great costumer service. The majority of your costumers are extremely happy and grateful. That’s the most important takeaway.
Thanks for the update. I’m bummed because I never received an email about the release this week. All I got was a Champion renewal notice. Did that glitch my notification for the box?
Alvin: I’m sorry to hear that. I looked up your email, and while you didn’t subscribe to our launch notification, you did subscribe to our general monthly newsletter until February 10 of last year when you opted out (that’s what Mailchimp is telling me). I can’t undo that manually, as it’s a consumer protection measure, but you could subscribe with another email.
I definitely never intentionally opted out. i use mail chimp and you can in my experience undo that as an admin. please un-opt me out if you get the chance
Alvin: If Mailchimp thinks that someone has unsubscribed, even as an admin I cannot resubscribe them myself (I have checked this). But their opt-in system will respond to you. Please go here and resubscribe; I’m sorry for the inconvenience: https://eepurl.com/qiMZj
Wow, I didn’t realize the mayhem. Thanks for your transparency around not just your thought processes but also logistics. I was able to become a champion AND get the combo box. I’m super stoked, as I didn’t realize y’all already sold out. So congrats on that. I have no feedback, and trust that whatever you all decide to do, it will be our feedback and your company’s best interests in mind! Thanks for making such a great game and storage option.
Thanks Tiffany! My sense is that people were excited/passionate about the box and then let down that they didn’t have a chance to order it because it sold so quickly. I feel for them, and we’re making more. I’m glad you were able to get a first-run copy, and you should get your shipping notification within a few weeks. :)
Bummed I missed out. Will the nesting box hold all the future expansions mentioned?
Yes, the Nesting Box is designed to hold all Wingspan content, past, present, and future. And you haven’t missed out, as noted in this article–we’re already working on a reprint, and we’ll continue to make more until we meet demand.
I’m really happy for Stonemaier and the success of this product. Truly amazing. I would definitely like to purchase this in the near future. Congrats!
Thanks Ben!
Maybe restrict printing orders to Champions only? That has other unintended downsides (e.g., “SM is only doing that to FORCE people to become a Champion!”) but at least there is a strong likelihood the demand numbers are less volatile.
Disclaimer: I’m a Champion primarily due to box the Nesting Box and Wine Crate but also purchased several other games/puzzles.
Christopher: Aside from the gatekeeping aspect of that–which would be really bad–we literally can’t restrict products on Shopify. If a product is listed, anyone can buy it. We can give Champions information that others don’t have, but it pretty quickly tends to get out in the open.
I completely agree there should not be gatekept products from SM other than the occasional shirt specific to champions/ambassadors, though I have seen restricted product access within Shopify sites before. I purchase a lot of products from a website called Glorious Gaming and I’m almost positive they use Shopify (the checkout looks identical to SM’s). Occasionally, they release products that are only purchasable if you meet certain criteria (for example, they are currently selling a modification (Flex Kit) for the GMMK Pro that is only purchasable if you are a Guild Member with them and another product (GSV2 Stabilizers) is 50% off for customers who have previously purchased the GMMK Pro. There seems to be some mechanism to tag customer accounts allowing access to certain products and discounts within Shopify, assuming they are in fact using it.
I really don’t get everyone’s thought process on saying that the date was known, emails sent and reminders throughout the process. Even if everyone who wanted the nesting box got on a minute after launch there still would have been people who didn’t get to pre-order. The demand was obviously higher than the initial printing estimates (sure SM would have preferred to sell to everyone who wanted it). So, of course there are disappointed customers because they thought if they signed up for notice they would be able to order. Sure most did not believe it would sell out so fast (sold out during a regular work shift and not everyone can get a break to check their phone; i know there are possible alternative but once again not everyone is in the same situation). I don’t think people should be rude but perfectly ok to be disappointed and offer their thoughts. There is also no guarantee that everyone will be able to get the next printing based on what has been stated. Therefore some will have to wait a year or maybe two depending on the next round of printings.
Adam: Absolutely! I hope I didn’t convey at all that people shouldn’t express their disappointment. I can’t see anyone waiting longer than 6 months to get a Nesting Box, though. There’s this first reprint, and if there’s still demand–which seems likely–we’ll start another reprint. The good news is that there’s plenty of Wingspan Asia available. The actual playable game is here for people to experience now.
I’m not quite sure I understand your first sentence, as the timing and date was known throughout the process via our newsletter, social media, and website, especially over the last month during the reveal.
I was simply stating that people (not SM) keep saying well they told everyone that it would be out and gave plenty of notices. Which I completely agree with. But they don’t take into account even if everyone got right on at time of release to order, there still would have been people who missed out becuase the printing was less than the demand. They are pretty much saying it’s people’s own fault they missed out (when no matter what there would have been people who missed out). I am definitely not saying SM did anything wrong (just honest misjudgement of demand; good problem to have) and I completely get the thought process for the company. Just don’t get how people can’t see both sides of the issue. I think SM is handling everything right by listening and reassuring people more will be printed (even if you have to buy separately) but will take some extra time.
That’s true, no matter what–in any scenario–there will be people who miss out. That’s why we don’t make limited, exclusive products. We can always make more, and we will, and it won’t really even take that much time due to the first reprint already nearing the end of production.
I read this “As noted above, we’re already nearing production on the reprint of a few thousand boxes, so our fulfillment centers should receive them in early 2023” and think that this run might not meet the demand for those who missed out. I know it says 2,300 said remind me but bet the demand will be higher. Would also bet some people from the first run will try to buy another box (I’d be curious how many people bought two or more this round; could be for various reason but can bet some will be on ebay soon). So there is still a chance people may miss out on the next printing. That is why I said a year or two. Sorry to keep replying. It is really refreshing that you take the time to respond to so many comment, it’s the right way to do thing but bet it is time consuming and exhausting
Also, keep in mind that we started the current reprint well before we knew the back-in-stock numbers. So it’s only the next print run (starting fresh) for which the sky is the limit. But it won’t take that long. I’d say 6 months. :)
To go based off Adam’s comment about multiple orders and scalpers – would it be possible to limit the purchase to 1 per person via registered email when making the purchase?
I do enjoy the Stonemaier way of revealing new games, however, I wonder if that’s why it’s causing some issues with preorders. Is it possible to ask Panda for additional copies later in the manufacturing process? (This way, you could potentially announce a game later in the manufacturing process but before printing is done, take the “printing order,” and adjust quantity from there?)
Josh: I wish it were that fast, but from the moment I place an order–even a reprint with no changes–it’s a minimum of 3.5 months for Panda to acquire the materials, print them, and assemble them.
I kinda guessed the would be the case, just figured I’d ask 😁 great work Jamey and Stonemaier Team – truly appreciate everything you folks do.
Just wanted to say thank you for considering those of us in Australia and New Zealand and providing a fair option to us. A reasonable time in Anerica or Europe will be something like 3am here. Really decent of Stonemaier to give us the earlier option in accordance with time zones, rather than make everything based on American times.
I was very happy to order a copy of the nesting box + Asia, but do know others that missed out. I think a pre-order system for website only advanced copies is a great idea. It could be open for around a month? Really appreciate that Stonemaier don’t have artificial demand limits though and anything that us desired will be remade later.
Felicity: That was new for us, and I’m really glad we did it. We’ll definitely do it again in the future, and we’re seeking to more our Asia fulfillment to Australia so others in similar time zones can benefit the same way (currently Asia is fulfilled from the US).
Like Felicity said, thank you for considering Aus and NZ in the release, and I’m glad lots of my fellow Aussies/New Zealanders were able to pre-order. I missed out as I wasn’t aware it would be open earlier for us – the only correspondence I’d seen said we’d get an email at launch, around 9:30am Central on Nov 2. Unfortunately since that was 1am (Nov 3) here when I logged on at 7:30am it was all sold out. I became a Stonemaier champion on the weekend, so not sure what happened there with me not receiving the email (I’ve checked my junk folder). But thank you for being so transparent with the process and explaining it to everyone.
Stoked y’all sold out. Sad I wasn’t one of the customers. Bought the expansion and will just eat the double shipping when j inevitably buy the nesting box. You guys should offer your future expansions with a bag option. To cut down on paper waste and having to discard boxes. That’s what I’m most upset about having to buy them separate now lol. Just a thought?
David: It won’t quite be double shipping, as Wingspan Asia weighs considerably less than the Nesting Box, and we’re going to make the Nesting Box as cost-effective as possible.
We do look for eco-friendly packaging options (you’ll see one in our Tapestry expansion in 2023), but we still need to protect the components–it’s a long journey between the factory and you. With just a bag, many components in Wingspan Asia would arrive damaged (and bags are typically plastic, which won’t biodegrade nearly as fast as cardboard).
The big question is how much extra it will cost over the $120 to piecemeal it out, saying nothing of the wait.
Unless trying to play the FOMO game, it should be less expensive getting it later on but I fear it will be the opposite. Like a $50 shipped expansion + $80 shipped box (for a total of $130) rather than $120 for the whole enchilada if not for this pre-order mess.
I hope I’m wrong and will be happy to look silly, but I fear even I may have underestimated those future costs and it will be *even* more expensive :(
It appears the expansion is actually $53 shipped so in order for this to not become a FOMO mess (cost wise for those who weren’t able to catch the brief window of this *way* underproduced item) the empty nesting box (if I understand correctly that the reprint will indeed be the box only despite this *not* saving the end-user on shipping costs) will need to be $67 shipped *at most*
Anyway to confirm this? Or how much us unfortunate many will pay extra having to purchase them separately then together, ironically un-nested?
I appreciate how transparent you have been about the whole process and how engaged you have been on Facebook, BGG, this site, etc. over the past couple days trying to address every issue that has come up.
I think a pre-order months in advance to guarantee a copy would have been a good idea for a product like this. It is a unique product in that it was known about far in advance and pretty much everything about it was known well before production started. People who were interested could make an informed decision about whether they wanted it or not before production started. And it is unique in that only the first printing includes the expansion in the box.
That said, I strongly prefer the typical Stonemaier Games strategy of announcing information about a product a few weeks before release, followed by content creator previews and reviews, then pre-orders and fulfillment. I don’t think that there is much argument that this is a more customer friendly policy than using crowdfunding, at least for an established company that has the resources to do so.
Thanks for your input, Jeff, and I appreciate your interest in the printing order idea. The one catch is that we definitely are not going to release details about new products (the Nesting Box was a rare exception) until much closer to the product’s release, as you described in your last paragraph. For that reason, I’m not entirely sure it would work for a new game, as people are–justifiably so–going to want to know more about the product before they pay for it.
Here is how it went down for me:
1) Oh, I’m glad I checked my email because the box thing is available!
2) Aw, they are sold out already? When did that email arrive, anyway?
3) Earlier today? Maybe I was looking at the wrong thing on the website
4) Nope, it looks like they actually sold out. Aw! But, but, but… shucks.
5) Added my name to the new waiting list.
6) Ordered expansion pack.
7) Felt really happy that so many people were so super interested in this great game, and how awesome it was for all the folks involved in making the magic happen that it sold out so dang fast, and I will get the box when I get it.
Keep up the good work!
I appreciate you sharing your timeline, Christopher, and for still sharing your excitement even though you didn’t get in on the first printing!
My only real complaint was that I waited too long to decide how much I was willing to spend. I figured 35 for Asia + 50 for the box.
I was off and didn’t have enough time to come to terms with the $120 total cost.
That was my bad, so I just ordered the Asia expansion and will wait on the nesting box.
I would have loved a “party ahead of time to reserve a copy option” as that would have given me more time to adjust for cost.
But I’m getting the Asia expansion and will enjoy it until the next printing off the nesting box because now I can save for it!
I wish we could offer the box for that little, but $50 is less than the manufacturing + freight shipping cost of the box. :)
Is “party” the same as the “printing order” I mention above, or something different?
Yeah! Don’t know how that “party” text got there. Hehe
I totally understand the pricing, I just underestimated it (or missed an estimated price announcement, which is highly possible.)
I love that you’re willing to experiment but I still don’t understand how people did not know about the whole preordering timeline. This timeline was discussed for weeks. Multiple emails were sent out prior to the big day. The FB Wingspan group has talked of nothing else for even longer. How did do many people miss all this?? The hype was huge!
I do hope whatever you try works out better for more people and it will be great for you to have solid numbers upon which to base your order. Good luck to everyone!
Kathy: I hear you! Though I know for myself, sometimes I get excited about something, sign up for a notification, and completely forget about it until months later when I get that notification. So perhaps there were others who “set it and forgot it” until it was too late. Selling out in 6 hours is just really fast for most people, and perhaps the hybrid method we’ll test will help serve both types of customers. I appreciate you being on top of it, though! :)
One. One email was sent out discussing the timeliness. If like me, you’re not watching the social media pages, you’re not a SM champion, you simply signed up for the nesting box preorder mailing list because that’s what you were interested in. And it was sent 3 weeks before the go live. Pretty easy to miss. I signed up to that mailing list over a year ago, what if I just hadn’t opened that particular email? All that I think was missing just one more email, a couple of days beforehand, “Don’t forget the store will be open”. Either way, I’m now on the “back in stock reminder” mailing list, hopefully I don’t miss that one too. Lesson learned, if I was really invested, I should have signed up as a champ.
Jarrod: We sent a total of two emails to people who signed up for a launch notification: One on October 7, and one at launch on November 2. People who signed up for that list did not sign up for an ongoing stream of notifications–it would have been a GDPR violation for me to essentially post an ongoing newsletter when my commitment was simply to tell people when the preorder was live. For that reason, it was even a stretch for me to send two, but I thought people might appreciate the heads up earlier in October.
I don’t expect people to follow all the various Stonemaier Games social media, though there’s also nothing preventing people from checking it if they’re as passionate as they sound about a product. But most importantly, how can I do this better for you in the future? What would have created a better experience for you? I’m asking out a of a genuine desire to serve customers like you that seem frustrated by the communication.
Hey Jamey
You’re right, there was two, but if you’re an Aussie like me that second one arrived in the middle of the night. So I woke up to no stock. Apart from the pre-launch email closer to the go-live date that I mentioned, I think everything else you did was spot on.
If I really want to increase my chances to the secure the nesting box during the first reprint, the onus is on me to increase my exposure to the notifications. It sounds like the Champion subscription would be my best bet.
Thanks and congrats on the sell out.
Jarrod: That’s true. While we informed Champions of the earlier opening of the preorder in Australia, we didn’t broadcast that publicly, and while I’m guessing Champions liked that, it wasn’t optimal for non-Champions.
I appreciate you taking that onus, though I truly don’t want anyone to feel like they need to pay a membership fee to get proper communication. I will see to improve the launch notification communications in the future.
The way Stonemaier manages new release currently Is a best practice in my book. waiting for preorders until the product is complete, I feel is a better practice. Someone will mis out on the first print. It happens with every game, heck the first wingspan sold out multiple times before everyone got a copy. Collecting preorder monies during manufacturing is a tricky business and from experience and feedback from many crowdfunding venues rarely makes the masses happy. Most of the time there is an increase in some part of the process along the way that you either swallow as the company or pass on to the customer, both have consequences. bottom line, it is impossible to make everyone happy all of the time, but you have loyal, repeat customers that understand how the company works and it is truly for the best interest of the customer, even if you missed the first print. If wingspan is any indication with your company, if the masses want it, they will get it, but you will never be able to put it in everyone’s hands first run.
And on another note, this has been all over the board game world for a while now, so the “Karen” in me is yelling if you really wanted the first run you would have followed thru on the preorder information request a bit sooner.
I am looking forward to the new birds and game play but more excited about getting everything in one box. Keep doing what you are doing, and more pictures of your cat please!
Margaret: Thanks for sharing your thoughts on our preorder method. It is indeed a customer-facing method that we’re privileged to be able to do, and I agree that the alternative can lead to quite a few issues. But I’m happy to experiment to see if those concerns are a reality (while also still serving the majority of our customers who seem to like the current method).
Cat photos every Saturday on Instagram! I have some good ones this week. :)
The fact that you are here trying to make it so people like me, that missed out can maybe not feel that way again in the future, is why you run the best company in gaming.
Thanks Richard! I’m trying, and I’m sorry I failed you this time.
After reading through these comments and discussion, I’m not convinced that post a ‘preorder’ option 6 months ago would have solved anything. I would envision the scenario would have played out something like this.
-Jamey teases Nesting Box, gets ~8000 interested persons
-Jamey makes a preorder product on the webstore
-6000 people preorder
-Jamey sees 6000 out of his 8000 preordered, leaving 2000 unknown. He decides to print 10000 total, just in case.
-Order day arrives, 4000 units in stock (because the other 6000 are spoken for. And then 7000 people try to order.
– 3000 people are still left upset and feeling left out.
I’m using easy numbers here to keep things simple. In short, I don’t think the preorders would have given Jamey any new information he didn’t already have and things would have turned out the same.
Robert: I agree that it wouldn’t give us that much more information compared to what we did. The difference is that those who felt like they didn’t have the opportunity to buy a first-run copy would be able to look back and at least see a window of more than 6 hours when they could have gotten it. Would some people still be upset? Quite possibly. But we’ll then make more. We can always make more. :)
That’s a good point about the 6 hours, I failed to consider that. Thanks for the reply. And I wish you luck in trying to find the balance between gauging demand and inventory. If anyone can find a solution, I know it will be Stonemaier.
I agree with Robert. I think no matter what you do, some people are going to be upset. It’s not like the FOMO is related to you refusing to make more. I just worry that pre-orders that are months in advance lead to more problems than they solve.
SM are such a customer-centered company and you are so hard on yourself in wanting to please all your customers. I worry that “the surest way to please no one is to try to please everyone”.
I applaud you trying to please everyone but also trust your gut. You are a great human *and* a great businessperson.
I’m a huge supporter of how Stonemaier Games has handled product launches post Scythe (aka post Kickstarter). It creates excitement and interest in the new product and does not lead to fatigue or long waits, given that the game is released shortly after information about the game is provided. It allows for a sustained period of anticipation followed by…actually ordering, receiving, and playing the game in quick succession. It’s not a drip of ‘updates’ every month for a year or more, followed by waiting, waiting, and usually more waiting.
I was glad to successfully order the Nesting Box, and perhaps it’s a bit unfair, but I’m unsympathetic to those who missed out on the first printing (I guess that’s easy when they aren’t my customers). I feel like Stonemaier did a great job of communicating the Nesting Box as a product as it was being developed, and throughout the Asia reveal process very well. There’s only so much that can be done.
As mentioned, your new product launch strategy is the best in the industry, by far (as far as I’m aware). From the mysterious code names on the development chart, leading to some small reveals and ultimately the design diaries and pre order, it just feels very customer friendly. Stonemaier games don’t get lost in the sea of new games in advance of the big conventions, nor the new Kickstarter campaigns which are topics of interest during the campaign followed by waning interest. Stonemaier games typically own the conversation on BGG when announced and that interest is typically sustained for a long time because people then have the game in hand, and can talk about it. It’s fun to be excited about something, and it’s fun that that excitement can be sustained due to the lack of time lag. It’s ultimately just a great marketing strategy. Additionally, I think it really shows confidence in the product…Stonemaier seems so confident in their games that they don’t need to build hype through a KS/long term preorder, and I for one appreciate that. If it’s good enough for the Stonemaier team, I trust it’s something that very likely will be up my alley.
Perhaps for a product like the nesting box, where it’s already an established brand and is not a new ‘reveal,’ a pre-order would be a fine idea. It’s purely cosmetic and doesn’t really benefit from the Stonemaier release strategy.
That said, for new games, I’d suggest remaining status quo for the reasons I’ve stated above.
I appreciate the affirmation of our standard preorder strategy, David–you perfectly captured what we aim for in terms of anticipation and delivery in a tight timeframe (and how it results positively in terms of the shared excitement people experience when it feels like everyone is playing and talking about a new product).
As a teacher, I was not in a position to check my personal email, and thereby see that pre-orders could be made, until after the last U.S. units sold out. Are you seriously unsympathetic to me, or other individuals whose jobs keep them sufficiently busy – including other public serving jobs like first responders or medical personnel – that they cannot check their personal messages during the work day?
Advance pre-orders would provide people in those situations access, whereas same day sales that are likely, based on prior experience, to sell out, eliminate their access.
I am well pleased with Stonemaier and Jamey’s open communication, but I am disappointed that such an unempathetic response is posted in his comments section.
Ken: I’m absolutely sympathetic to you, and I appreciate the service of the people you mentioned. I think it’s fair to say that if you’re unavailable at a specific time for a product you want, there are other ways to order (i.e., have a friend place the order). It’s certainly more of an inconvenience, but I don’t think David’s comment or my affirmation of it is saying that we don’t care for people in your situation–there are solutions to these problems, both from my side and from yours.
As for my side, though, you’re absolutely right that the “printing order” method I described would help people in your situation. A 6-hour window to preorder really isn’t what I want for anyone–that drives anxiety, FOMO, etc, which is not good. I sympathize with you and will find a better option, and perhaps you can explore a backup for those times when you aren’t able to be at the computer if it’s important to you. I say that not as criticism at all–I’m just trying to help you avoid this situation in the future if it ever should arise, for us or others! :)
Thank you so much for your communication and candor. Just my $0.02… at this time I am backing 29 different games on various crowdfunding platforms. Most of those deliverables won’t be until 2023. I presume most of your customers are backing substantial numbers of games (even more than I am). The point being.., the days of wanting immediate fulfillment are long gone. If it becomes easier to manage demand by taking in advance orders that may not fill for a few months, I think the vast majority of your customers would be okay with that. I think we’re already living with delays for most games, and if we have a good target date for shipping/fulfillment, I think most of us would be okay with that. This might contrast with the general public who only buy a sporadic game once in a while – and who might have a lower threshold for waiting.
I’m thrilled for you and Stonemaier that this wingspan rollout has bern successful. Now the real question… when are the tapestry expansions coming?? Lol. Thank you.
I think that’s an excellent point, Aaron. I still greatly prefer to save the big reveal until much close to when people actually receive the game, as I want people’s anticipation excitement to carry over to them getting it to the table in the near future. There’s also the eternal question of “why should I back this now instead of buying it later”, but the hybrid approach I mentioned helps to address that in a low-pressure way.
I was fortunate enough to be able to order first thing Wednesday morning. While it is frustrating to miss out on a product you’ve been eagerly waiting for I’m a bit shocked at the anger over this situation. Personally I would have no problem pre-paying to avoid the pre-order rush.
An aspect that seems to have been ignored or swept under the rug is that expansions (and accessories) typically sell fewer copies than the base game by a substantial margin, with each successive product selling less. I believe it was Thomas Lehman that wrote about this in the context of Rio Grande Games but I can’t find the post now.
Maybe awareness of Wingspan puts it in a different category of consumer behavior, maybe not. In any case it’s not reasonable to expect a company to overproduce an accessory based on their sales projections – never mind that accessory products are a niche unto themselves.
Has there ever been an accessory product for a hobby game that ever sold so many units?
Thanks for your feedback! You’re correct that typically expansions and accessories within a brand tend to decrease in sales over time. Wingspan expansions have sold very well, though I fully expect that dropoff to happen every time we make a new expansion.
As for accessories, we’ve sold items far more popular than the Nesting Box. We’ve sold almost 100,000 units of Scythe metal coins, for example. The closest analog I know of is the Scythe Legendary Box (30,000 lifetime units sold), though it wasn’t as much of an organizer box as the Nesting Box, and thus was significantly less expensive.
Thanks! I guess I’d be curious about similarly priced accessories or or organizer accessories. Things like the GeekUp sets or some of the more elaborate Broken Token style insert organizers.
In my opinion there is a massive difference between having limited initial print runs with the intent to reprint, and having no plans to reprint something. The worst that customers have to do is wait a few months and the nesting box will be available again. It’s not as if you said the NB was a one time thing and those who missed out missed out for good. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to ask people to just be patient and wait for the next offering. You’ve always said that no stonemaier product will go out of print so long as there is demand for more. Aggravated customers should take that to heart and just sit tight.
You’re doing great Jamey and Stonemaier. Congrats on a successful preorder!
Nate: You’re right, I think there is a big difference when a company is committed to keeping something in print. We don’t make limited editions or exclusives–if our customers want us to make more of something and we can justify a minimum order quantity, we’ll make more of it.
One concern is when supply chain issues and volatile shipping costs exists even if a product is sold again the price can be different. There is definitely anxiety in that regard for some people when there is a future reprint to wait for.
100% this. There’s also price FOMO if the reprint ends up costing more for the same items/contents whether purchased together (expansion within nesting box) or seperately (expansion and empty nesting box). Avoiding this price FOMO is the same thing we try to avoid with scalpers who purchase an item just to resell, which hopefully isn’t the case here but I don’t know if that’s a concern, though one could argue it should be with limited first print runs like this that sell out within a matter of hours…
Oh wow! I didn’t think it would have sold out so fast at all! I was lucky enough to have checked my email that afternoon (like an hour before it sold out) since I forgot about the launch.
Jamey, +1 saying you are doing an incredible job and to not be hard on yourself here. While the suggestion of “pre-payments” sounds like it might help with these special situations, you should make sure you don’t end up creating new problems for yourself. It kind of sounds not too far from a crowd funding model. Having said that I would certainly have no issue pre-paying for a stonemaier product if the option was offered. I back crowd funding projects on a pretty regular basis and there is obvioulsy a whole minefield of issues to deal with there (DD is my latest drama-fest). I’m just saying I don’t think it is a choice you should feel you have to offer unless you are really sure it works for you.
If you can get a new production run of the nesting box in early 2023 it is a pretty short delay really before all 12,300 customers have the product. We have all been surviving just fine with seperate wingspan boxes for years so what is a few more months really ? Keep up the great work.
Andrew: I agree, I want to poke at this from different angles, as accepting money in advance on our webstore can create different expectations and issues. I think the Nesting Box reprint will be a test to see if it works out.
I think you could be right that having a “product” on the webstore that people can “buy now” would help mitigate some of the frustration of missing out yesterday. The product yesterday was “pre-order Nesting Box with 2-3 week delay”. You could put a new product up soon with “pre-order Nesting Box (only) with 4-5 month delay” – that way people who are frustrated today at least have “something they can buy right now” and might feel emotionally a bit better about the situation because they have something concrete ordered albeit with a longer pre-order time ? It might be most of the emotion comes from the “missing out” feeling, when as has been pointed out several times, no-one is going to miss out, it is just a question of how long we might have to wait ?
I think that’s a good approach to experiment with, Andrew.
I would be very to likely pre-order a niche product like described in this post ahead of production (with a several month wait) primarily to clearly and materially support a business that I think does things the right way and should be a model for other businesses. I would have the added benefit of zero stress related to “racing” to get my order in on launch day (even though there is rarely an availability constraint), which would offset the (to me) minor cost of being out of pocket my expense for months before my product arrives. That “opportunity cost” is one I face when I support a crowdfunding campaign, and the “birthday present” experience of a fun thing arriving completely detached from the cost I paid for it is always worth the opportunity cost in my book. The benefits to me of early pre-ordering are secondary to my ability to support a creator I want to support. This is similar reasoning to why I have been a Champion for as long as I knew the program existed. I like the benefits, but I like even more being able to support a creator I respect at a reasonable (to me) cost.
Thanks for weighing in, Dan, and I’m grateful for the “support a company” aspect of the equation!
Firstly, I commend your open discussion of everything! I don’t think anyone can criticize your print number decision based on the information you had! Nor can anyone say you make enough effort to gauge the market.
I would however have considered the Nesting box to be different enough to warrant an advance preorder of ~6 months – Would’ve been happy to sign up for that! – After all, You’ve literally written the book on game industry crowdfunding. Why not have treated this product like one of your earlier ventures? I’m sure there’s plenty of good reasons, but it would’ve mitigated risk and potential Wingspan fan disappointment.
(Not to be read as any real criticism, you all are killing it, and I love your games!)
If you’re curious to hear the reasons, I’ve recorded them here: https://stonemaiergames.com/are-the-reasons-we-quit-kickstarter-still-valid-6-years-later/
I’m guessing part of this could be related to the relatively-huge proportion of Wingspan game owners who are not hobby gamers, and Wingspan is likely the single hobby game they own. They buy all the expansions and other related content b/c those purchases don’t compete with other games for them.
I think it’s impossible to truly gauge demand for any product connected to a game that has sold over 1M copies. I continue to appreciate the detailed sharing of your thought processes and the results (especially when you are surprised) – it helps us all learn.
That’s a great point about the different types of gamers that Wingspan has reached, Brian, and how it makes these calculations more difficult.
As disappointed as I was to miss out on getting the nesting box, your relentless pursuit to provide the best possible customer (and gaming) experience is greatly appreciated. Thanks for always trying your best and listening to your customer base.
Thanks, Ryan. I’ll keep listening and trying to improve our methods!
Jamey, I really don’t think you should feel bad at all about the Nesting Box release. You ran a completely transparent process, giving people tons of information every step of the way. You are NEVER going to be able to make 100% of the people happy, and imho the people who are complaining now (reminder to pause notifications from the Fb group for the moment) are simply looking for someone to blame for their own disappointment. Is it sad they were unable to get a box? Sure. But it’s not like the boxes sold out in 5 min or something. You sent a LOT of notifications. No matter how many you rationally made, chances are good that someone wouldn’t be happy.
Rest easy on this one. You did nothing wrong.
Thanks Matt! I appreciate that, though I’m really just focused on doing better for our customers. I agree that it’s tough to make everyone happy, but I’ll keep trying. :)
Honestly, I think you do a marvelous job of working with and for your customers and it’s a shame that people are so angry about a game box instead of trusting a company that has a proven track record to gauge their orders as best as possible.
That said, it may not hurt to find some way to allow those who want to share the risk with you do so.
Thanks Todd. I am grateful for anyone who has placed their trust in us, and perhaps sharing the risk–for those who want to–can help affirm that trust.
So sorry to hear about all the obstacles related to this release. Also sorry for those who missed out on first run. I was super swamped at work and was relying on email reminder and was just lucky enough to look at my phone at 10:45 and scrambled. Thank you for always trying to keep your customers and Champions happy. Don’t get me wrong, I have been on the delayed end of things but at the end of the day the product is superior and always provides enjoyment. You never hear about the happy customers with shiny newness because they are too busy playing.
I’m glad you were able to get a copy! It is good to hear from happy customers in addition to the dissatisfied ones–we need to know both what we can do better and what we should continue doing. :)
Thanks for always being there! I was very disappointed that I couldn’t get the big box yesterday but it is what it is! In the end, it’s just a box and I can wait to get it. I will continue to be a champion for your company! I just taught my sister-in-law Scythe and she loves it. Keep the good news coming and a little disappointment and patience never hurt anybody. Thanks for always being open and honest and I know yesterday was way more stressful for you than anyone else!
I appreciate your flexibility, Brad. Yesterday was indeed quite stressful! Thanks for teaching Scythe to your sister. :)